Help 100 Live Aboard Sailors Keep Their Homes By Offering Feedback on Mooring Field

[CarlF]

If you live in a community, you should contribute to the expenses. Ambulance, police, roads, public shore facilities, and schools.

The simple answer is to charge a nightly rate for anchoring payable on the internet. In the Bahamas sea parks a mooring is $1/ft and anchoring is $.50/ft. Seems to work well.

I think a day, month, and annual rate would be appropriate in Miami. These fees could provide free pumps outs, trash bins, car and bike parking, a dinghy dock, a float with city water, mail/package pickup and other cruiser services. And a valid residential address so you could register to vote.

[CaptTom]

Again, I find this discussion valuable, and keeping it friendly is appreciated! I do think we're getting close to agreement on a lot of points.

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

The homeowners own the land to the property line. Beyond that, they have no more rights than anyone else. The water is a public trust, to be managed for the benefit of those using it.

I think every member on this forum will back that sentiment 100%. That's not even part of this debate.

Especially that part about the waters being a public trust. Even more specifically, to be managed for the benefit of all. More on that later...

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

Next - the boaters at anchor are NOT averse to paying for a mooring field, which would in effect be a "property tax". Where you are going wrong is in presuming that these people are all druggies and alkies living on derelict boats.

Let's look at that last sentence, first. I was very clear that the "type" of person living aboard is irrelevant in this discussion. I think we can all agree to drop that as a straw-man argument going forward.

Now, about that mooring field idea. I see why that could be a viable solution. As long as space is made available fairly to anyone who has an interest in using that anchorage.

My problem with that isn't the concept, but the implementation. It's hard to juggle the interests of those navigating through, those looking for a live-aboard option, those looking to store their boats and those wanting a weekend getaway. Then there's the problem of the municipality seeing a cash cow in "all those rich boaters" and inflating the prices.

But that's hypothetical. I'm willing to stipulate that a municipal mooring field can be a good solution.

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

...living amongst a community of people who are always willing to lend a hand, always watching out for their neighbours...

Yes, I've seen that sort of live-aboard community. It's a great way to live!

Finally, back to an earlier point, Mike said it better than I could:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

...I've also stated that anchorages, like other public spaces, are part of the commons. They should be available for all to enjoy. I don't agree that people have the right to permanently occupy the commons, and convert it to private use...

This is the core of this debate.

Yes, it somewhat contradicts my comment about mooring fields being a viable option. It's not an option I like, but economic theory says that putting a price on the contested resource is one solution to a Tragedy of the Commons problem, so I have a hard time arguing against the idea.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

Welcome!

I, too, frequent a few forums, and I've been involved in this sort of thing since the days of Compuserve and AOL.

I've almost used up my internet quota and could use some AOL. Do you have a spare 20-hour floppy I can have?

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

Gord - in the US, the Public Trust Doctrine states that the waters are held in trust to be managed for the benefit of all. It is an important doctrine and one that is supposed to guide issues such as this.

So how do you square this with people dropping anchor virtually permanently? Sounds like benefit of one, not benefit of all

[CanuckSailorguy]

First of all, there are NO laws in Florida restricting these people from living on the water where they are. NONE. They are completely legal. The problem is that the people living ashore don't like it.
You talk about the commons, but this is not a land issue and the "commons" is not an apt or applicable analogy here. The term is "public trust", and the complainers, unlike the boaters, are not using the water so they have no say.
Frankly, and I've said this publicly to the city commissioners - the complainers should buy curtains, or move inland if they don't like seeing boats. They have NO right to dictate what happens outside their condo window or property line. That's where their rights end, not that they accept that because as far as they are concerned, they're wealthy and can have what they want.
We dealt with this same attitude in Melbourne FL years ago. It took time, and a kick in the butt from the state senator at that time, but the police finally started telling the complainers that they had no grounds to act on, and that the police would not be bothering the boaters simply because they were anchored out. They were so unhappy.
The assumption here about the word "poor" is that these boaters are destitute, and they are far from that. One who kept his boat here previously is a veterinarian with a shop in South Beach. That's a LONG way from poverty. Others own property in MB, or elsewhere. Almost all as I've said previously are working. Those that aren't are retired. Most have boats that are not dock queens, but are not in any way derelict.
One ordinance that I would support in Miami Beach is one that Fort Lauderdale has. It mandates that a boat must be presentable, without having stuff strewn all over the deck and/or looking untidy, needing paint, etc.
However, as noted previously, the shoreside folk in MB don't care and it wouldn't make a difference - not when you get the president of the homeowner's association yelling out that they want all the boats gone, want none to be anchored out at all.
They won't even consider speaking to the boaters - I've tried. The boaters have offered to install their own moorings, pay for reasonable dinghy dockage and more - and got no response from the city.
Believe me, it's not the boaters who are being unreasonable here.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Notwithstanding any of this, no one has the right to permanently occupy part of the commons, converting it to their own private space. This seems to be the core of the legal issue here. I fully accept that people can choose to live on the water. I choose to do so for about 1/2 of each year. The other 1/2 I choose other options. But again, my choices cannot simply abrogate other people's rights to enjoy a public space, or in this case, a public anchorage.

If it is, as you say, a choice, then the argument is even simpler. These people are free to make their choice to live on a boat, but they have to do it within the confines of the law that everyone needs to follow. From what I see, this position only strengthens the argument to limit permanent anchoring.



Since poverty is largely a relative concept, then I'd say the boaters you are talking about ARE (financially) poor. I don't find this offensive. Lots of people are poor. I am legally poor, largely by choice.

Besides, you've just said it yourself; you have to be "very wealthy" to live near Miami Beach. This may not be fair, but life isn't fair. The fact is, as a poor person, I can't live wherever I want. I've made the choice to live freely, but at the cost of having limited financial wealth. That's my choice, but there are always consequences to choices, and one of them means I cannot simply live wherever I would like.

[CanuckSailorguy]

First of all, it's legal.
Now, tell me, how does a boat at anchor cause you not to be able to enjoy that body of water? The anchored vessel does not preclude your usage of it in any way, does it? Boats are coming and going there all the time, it's a busy anchorage - if you can't find a spot today - and the last time I motored through there a couple of months back there was room - you can find a spot tomorrow or the next day.
No different than any other busy anchorage.

Originally Posted by mvweebles

So how do you square this with people dropping anchor virtually permanently? Sounds like benefit of one, not benefit of all

[Cheyne]

Are you registered to vote in Florida? Voters the only ones with a say. Squatters do not have a say.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by CanuckSailorguy

First of all, there are NO laws in Florida restricting these people from living on the water where they are. NONE

This is totally not true. Every one of those boats dump all their raw sewage into the bay. That is illegal, and impacts all users of that body of water. It is sufficient legal and practical basis for clearing out the cesspool.