Cheapest country for a live aboard?

[parcus]

One day, many years ago, in the main harbour of a Pacific island capital, a white man sailed in and anchored next to me in a rusty old steel ketch. After setting the hook he yelled across at me, "Do you want to buy this old glass buoy for $20?" I looked at the old buoy he had and bought it off him. He said, "Thanks, I need $20 for my entry visa." I thought to myself, "That's really doing it on the cheap."

Clearly, one can push this question to extreme limits. It's similar to the answer to the question, "What's the smallest boat you need to sail across the ocean?"

All things taken into account, south-east Asia provides modern comforts at reasonable prices. But if your income is USD, living a measured life of low consumption in the USA is probably about as reasonably affordable as most places, I would think. Or other developed countries for that matter, when you take into account security, health insurance, clean environment, etc.

In the South Pacific, Fiji also seems like a balanced answer to the question.

It all depends on how far you're willing to go to not spend money.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by Ozmirage

Actually, American government, insurance and socialism are the underlying reasons for skyrocketing costs.
1. The criminalization of unlicensed medical care and medicine eliminated the "right" to healthcare. It's an expensive privilege, for which you have to pay for the privilege to be treated or buy medicines.
2. Insurance companies skim huge profits from their policy holders - which only adds to the cost of medical care. Not to forget the huge administrative overhead that requires a clerical staff to manage.
3. Socialist taxes on labor, increase the cost for buying that labor - which includes the health care providers. In addition, the formerly non-profit hospitals and clinics run by religious orders were obligated to pay wages AND THUS TAXES, which ended their ability to offer free / inexpensive care. Government got its squeeze... on us.

FYI: before socialist inflation, a ten day stay in a hospital (delivery and maternity care) was $90. (1920-1940)
Today, a 48 hour stay will set you back $3500+.

Taxes are not "socialist".....they are what 'market economies' take from their citizens earnings in order to fund infrastructure and services that benefit the greater good - ports, roads, military, health care etc.



Insurance companies and inflation probably took care of the difference in cost from 1940. But what was the annual wage in 1920s prior to the Depression..?? Around $3-5000..?? So that $90 per day was more than a weeks wages. So still not cheap...



PROFITS are the good ol' number one reason for the cost of US health care. Every element of the 'system' needs to make a profit - doctors, surgeons, nurses, hospitals, anaesthetists, insurers....it all adds up.



In 'welfare economies' like Canada, UK and Australia, health care is FREE. (Effectively, paid for from general taxation, and in Oz, a small annual Levy on earnings - so, yeah, a 'tax' if you like, but that's it... 2.5% of annual income. But there is a 'gap' for some services that needs to be paid by the patient, so not 'totally' free...)



Overall, actual "costs" to provide care are much the same in all these countries, but the health care industry in those countries doesn't have anything like the cost burden of the US health care 'system'.

So it's not "socialist taxes" that are the probkem, but good ol' "market capitalist profits" that are causing the huge costs for healthcare in the US.


Two days "under observation" in an Oz hospital might see a fee of a few hundred dollars....not $90-odd thousand dollars...!!

Those of us who live outside the US despair of ever seeing US health care done sensibly.


It's so bound up in belief systems - like that 'free universal health care is

*socialist*', in which the term socialist is a pejorative.

From our perspective here in Oz, if our Medicare system is 'socialist', then we need more of it, not less.

And, for the record, the Conservatives (and Conservative voters especially) here in Oz are as rabidly "pro" our 'socialist medical system' as the so-called 'socialists' on the Left.

If you call it 'welfare', rather than 'socialism', it loses that pejorative sting and becomes much, much more palatable.

Bottom line is, health care is better here, and cheaper.

The US system is just nuts.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Once you are “in” New Zealand is actually pretty cheap. But as housing prices soar, I think liveaboards are going to be more and more restricted.

But then again, we’ve been referring to it as the “last freedom” here since 2005....

Maaate it's not going to be the only thing thats going to be restricted as the property developers wanna cram more & more humans in.
We are going to be farming humans instead of cows & sheep.they call it progress.
I havent read the whole thread...


NZ how we wanted it.
IMO USA far cheaper than NZ if you anchor out for free & I have done it in both countries. ( without accessing medical care to be fair)

[JAFO]

Originally Posted by Buzzman

Taxes are not "socialist".....they are what 'market economies' take from their citizens earnings in order to fund infrastructure and services that benefit the greater good - ports, roads, military, health care etc.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Ozmirage

FYI: before socialist inflation

Inflation isn't "socialist" either. The biggest driver of inflation is the shady banking practice known as "fractional reserve banking". Basically, a bank with reserves in hand of, say, $10 Billion, is legally allowed to make loans of (for example) up to $100 Billion. (The actual percentage varies, but 10x the reserve is not uncommon.) Essentially creating money out of thin air, without even printing any money, as all it consists of are book-keeping entries. It's also a neat way to get around laws that say only the government is allowed to print money.

And since the loaned money ends up in the accounts of other banks, it increases their reserves as well, meaning they too can now issue loans to the value of many times the amount their reserve increased by. And all this 'fake' loaned money has to be paid back with 'real' money. The end result is a steadily increasing (inflating - but a better word would be diluting) money supply, resulting in every dollar in the economy losing value over time.

Yes, this scam should be illegal.. but it'll never happen, because at the end of the day, it's the big banks that really 'own' the government. The proof of this claim, is the simple fact that no government anywhere in the world is willing to call out this criminal behaviour for what it really is. They'd rather divert attention away from the real culprits, and blame inflation on spiralling wage and price pressures. Thereby blaming the symptoms for causing the disease. Ain't Capitalism wonderful?

[parcus]

Anyone who knows comparative public health policy knows it is factually correct that the US health system is both one of the most expensive in the world, and one of the worst performing amongst developed countries. The reason why is complicated, but not that complicated. Countries that perform much better, and pay far less for health services, have centrally coordinated systems that are designed to deliver more bang for the public buck, which is what some Americans would appear to call "socialism". All of these countries are market capitalist economies. All the long-term trendlines for both cost and effectiveness for the US health system have been heading the wrong way for about 35 years. Why that situation exists is a complicated question of political economy that this yacht cruising forum is probably not well suited to discuss in an objective and dispassionate manner. But "just nuts" is probably accurate shorthand to describe what's going on.

[TomCio]

Try The Canaries with their stable, warm climate, good winds, cheap marinas, fuel, and food, but remember to stay not longer than 182 days in a given year, otherwise you and your yacht would fall under EU and, what's even worse, Spanish residency with all its gruesome consequences.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by TomCio

Try The Canaries with their stable, warm climate, good winds, cheap marinas, fuel, and food, but remember to stay not longer than 182 days in a given year, otherwise you and your yacht would fall under EU and, what's even worse, Spanish residency with all its gruesome consequences.

Just to be clear the 180 days is not a hard and fast rule. There are many complications and it’s actually based on your domicile status amongst other things

Spain has a matriculation tax on boats imported. It’s 10% of the agreed second hand value.

Be thankful your not importing your eu car into Ireland it has a 60% tax. !!

I would not accept Spanish taxes are “ gruesome “

Given recent pricing I would also not agree that the Canaries has cheap marinas. Food is on the cheaper side of the EU average but not much . Greece would be similar

The cost of living in the EU is not dramatically different these days as it was 30 years ago.

My vote would be Greece , but I’m biased. There are still many free places to moor up to town quays , food is reasonable especially on season , away from tourist haunts eating out is very good value

Their tax system other then the cruising tax is easy on boats.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by JAFO

Agreed.



Inflation isn't "socialist" either. The biggest driver of inflation is the shady banking practice known as "fractional reserve banking". Basically, a bank with reserves in hand of, say, $10 Billion, is legally allowed to make loans of (for example) up to $100 Billion. (The actual percentage varies, but 10x the reserve is not uncommon.) Essentially creating money out of thin air, without even printing any money, as all it consists of are book-keeping entries. It's also a neat way to get around laws that say only the government is allowed to print money.

And since the loaned money ends up in the accounts of other banks, it increases their reserves as well, meaning they too can now issue loans to the value of many times the amount their reserve increased by. And all this 'fake' loaned money has to be paid back with 'real' money. The end result is a steadily increasing (inflating - but a better word would be diluting) money supply, resulting in every dollar in the economy losing value over time.

Yes, this scam should be illegal.. but it'll never happen, because at the end of the day, it's the big banks that really 'own' the government. The proof of this claim, is the simple fact that no government anywhere in the world is willing to call out this criminal behaviour for what it really is. They'd rather divert attention away from the real culprits, and blame inflation on spiralling wage and price pressures. Thereby blaming the symptoms for causing the disease. Ain't Capitalism wonderful?

Fractional reserve banking is the way a central bank controls the money supply. It’s not a scam it’s a carefully considered process. The abolition of the gold standard and then the failure of the subsequent Breton woods agreement was a necessary step in allowing nations to rebuild and grow without arbitrary artificial money supply limits.

Fiat currencies inherently beget a degree of inflation. But inflation is better then deflation , the dollar shows that massive deficits can be run forever without actually ever repaying these debts.

Hence your comments that real money is used to repay fractional reserve lending is actually false. The whole thing is a continuous circular process. ( not withstanding the 2008-2012 break in that circle ) there are no payback days merely rollover days

[Benz]

Just bounce between El Salvador and Honduras (pacific side) as your visas need renewal. It's hot and dingy and muggy and buggy, but you can anchor out 365; with a rowing dinghy you'll only need big boat fuel; when you get sick you go to a clinic where USAid pays for your medicines anyway, and your USD goes a long way.
You can beach your boat on the tide to clean the bottom (did it in El Salvador myself); you can go to the capital for a $1.17 bus ride (they count the pennies) to shop and get a break--I could live easily on less than the $800, but what sort of life would it be without something interesting to do? It was fine while passing through on a cruise, but I can't imagine wanting to fester there months without end.

[TomCio]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Just to be clear the 180 days is not a hard and fast rule. There are many complications and it’s actually based on your domicile status amongst other things

Spain has a matriculation tax on boats imported. It’s 10% of the agreed second hand value.

Be thankful your not importing your eu car into Ireland it has a 60% tax. !!

I would not accept Spanish taxes are “ gruesome “

Given recent pricing I would also not agree that the Canaries has cheap marinas. Food is on the cheaper side of the EU average but not much . Greece would be similar

The cost of living in the EU is not dramatically different these days as it was 30 years ago.

My vote would be Greece , but I’m biased. There are still many free places to moor up to town quays , food is reasonable especially on season , away from tourist haunts eating out is very good value

Their tax system other then the cruising tax is easy on boats.

I am pretty up to date with the Spanish and specifically Canarian regulations staying in Tenerife and having to abandon my plans to move here as a resident. Matriculation tax is not 10%, but 12%, 183 days is very precise rule worldwide (I put 180 days so as not to be caught by storm ;-). Is it really observed? As anywhere else with any law, nobody cares as long as you are not caught. In Spain, when you exceed 183 days, you automatically acquire the residence, so your yacht must be 12% taxed and you cannot operate it without Spanish skipper certificates. The penalty is... the confiscation of the yacht. You also have to pay their PIT over your worldwide income. Yes, some people live here on foreign yachts for many years without being caught. Some of them even organise cruises. The problem with Spanish taxes is that their interpretations vary from region to region and from court to court, so you cannot be really sure of anything, but I think this is the case in many states. Marinas? In some of them (state ones) you would pay below €200/month, especially if your boat has less than 12 m. The Canaries have definitely less safe anchorages and nice bays then in The Med, so you have to stay more in the marinas. Food - you can go to a restaurant for a full meal for just €3.60 - €8,50, a pint of beer would cost you €1 - €2 even in a fancy tourist area. I sailed in The Ionian Sea in July and the prices were rather different. There is no VAT in The Canaries, just 7% local tax (IGIC), which makes the prices of consumables considerably lower than in the rest of EU. Fuel costs are in the range of €1/litre. Taking all above into consideration, my plan is to stay ca. 6 months in Eastern Med, mostly in Greece, and move for winters to The Canaries for ca. 5 months to enjoy the eternal summer, without becoming a resident with all its negative implications.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by TomCio

I am pretty up to date with the Spanish and specifically Canarian regulations staying in Tenerife and having to abandon my plans to move here as a resident. Matriculation tax is not 10%, but 12%, 183 days is very precise rule worldwide (I put 180 days so as not to be caught by storm ;-). Is it really observed? As anywhere else with any law, nobody cares as long as you are not caught. In Spain, when you exceed 183 days, you automatically acquire the residence, so your yacht must be 12% taxed and you cannot operate it without Spanish skipper certificates. The penalty is... the confiscation of the yacht. You also have to pay their PIT over your worldwide income. Yes, some people live here on foreign yachts for many years without being caught. Some of them even organise cruises. The problem with Spanish taxes is that their interpretations vary from region to region and from court to court, so you cannot be really sure of anything, but I think this is the case in many states. Marinas? In some of them (state ones) you would pay below €200/month, especially if your boat has less than 12 m. The Canaries have definitely less safe anchorages and nice bays then in The Med, so you have to stay more in the marinas. Food - you can go to a restaurant for a full meal for just €3.60 - €8,50, a pint of beer would cost you €1 - €2 even in a fancy tourist area. I sailed in The Ionian Sea in July and the prices were rather different. There is no VAT in The Canaries, just 7% local tax (IGIC), which makes the prices of consumables considerably lower than in the rest of EU. Fuel costs are in the range of €1/litre. Taking all above into consideration, my plan is to stay ca. 6 months in Eastern Med, mostly in Greece, and move for winters to The Canaries for ca. 5 months to enjoy the eternal summer, without becoming a resident with all its negative implications.

Having returned from the canaries I’ve never seen a “ full meal “ for €3.60 even in places like La Gomera which are historically cheaper then the big islands.

By the way you become tax resident not resident after 183 days. There is a considerable difference. Tax residency means registering for Spanish taxes etc etc.

Islands are never cheap places. In Greece stay away from the Ionian and visit the mainland agricultural ports and you can eat cheap

In fact you can eat cheaply in many EU countries including France. It’s all the rest that costs.

By the way marina from Gomera is running at 0.55 cents per m2 per day. Discounts for annual stays etc , this is not cheap.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Having returned from the canaries I’ve never seen a “ full meal “ for €3.60 even in places like La Gomera which are historically cheaper then the big islands.

By the way you become tax resident not resident after 183 days. There is a considerable difference. Tax residency means registering for Spanish taxes etc etc.

Islands are never cheap places. In Greece stay away from the Ionian and visit the mainland agricultural ports and you can eat cheap

In fact you can eat cheaply in many EU countries including France. It’s all the rest that costs.

By the way marina from Gomera is running at 0.55 cents per m2 per day. Discounts for annual stays etc , this is not cheap.

Your obviously doing it wrong... search out the Menu del Dia's for lunch and in the evenings eat just for the price of your beers...
1st Imperial comes with Pincho's, 2nd with Batatas Bravas, 3rd with Chorizo, 4th with either Peppers in olive oil or some more Pincho's.. I go for the Peppers to balance my diet then with your 5th Imperial round off with a nice Quijo Curado.. with a selection of between 20 and 30 Tapa to choose from you can't go wrong..
I love Tapas..
Also.. I think he said between €3.60 and €8.50.. burger and fries can be had for €3.60 and a 3 course Menu del Dia for €8.50 is common.

[TomCio]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Having returned from the canaries I’ve never seen a “ full meal “ for €3.60 even in places like La Gomera which are historically cheaper then the big islands.

By the way you become tax resident not resident after 183 days. There is a considerable difference. Tax residency means registering for Spanish taxes etc etc.

Islands are never cheap places. In Greece stay away from the Ionian and visit the mainland agricultural ports and you can eat cheap

In fact you can eat cheaply in many EU countries including France. It’s all the rest that costs.

By the way marina from Gomera is running at 0.55 cents per m2 per day. Discounts for annual stays etc , this is not cheap.

You don't have many facilities in La Gomera, hence the prices are higher. They might have been lower ages ago, when this wasn't a hot tourist spot for one day visits. Check eg. the state port of Las Palmas de Gran Canaria.

I visited both Greek mainland and the islands - this year Ionian and last year Crete. You can find cheap and decent places everywhere, just go 10 metres off the main street and look where the locals are staying.

The fact that you haven't seen or don't know something does not necessarily imply it does not exist in reality. I'm in Tenerife now and you may Google check my favourite €3.60 place, NB called "La 3,60", in Costa del Silencio, the very south of the island (i.e. rather touristy place). You may enjoy a €1/pint in the middle of Playa de las Americas, the most touristy place in the island and get a really fine meal there for €6-€8. Naturally, there are couples who cannot survive without €100 a day.

The residency in The Canaries is a privilege and you have to apply for it to benefit from eg. 75% discounts for the ferries and flights between the islands and from the archipelago to the mainland. Nevertheless, you become tax resident automatically and you and your boat subject to the local maritime law resident when you exceed 183 days of stay in Spain in a calendar year, hence your boat is subject to 12% matriculation tax even if it is from a EU country and any foreign skipper certificates except RYA are worthless, you must not use your own boat on their waters. Such is their crazy law.

[Tonali99]

A: the one you're in
B: the one you're trying to get to.
C: factor in the cost of getting there.

[Peterbreit]

Where and what is GOA ?