Buying vs "Indefinite charter"

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I'm not sure this does anything for VAT. It's not like US state sales tax where you pay sales tax on used boats when you buy them.

If the boat is VAT paid and in the EU, I believe, if a UK resident buys it, it retains VAT paid status in the EU.

Well the impression I get is the boat is UK owned and registered but the OP is an EU citizen. If the boat is in the UK it becomes liable for VAT as soon as it enters UK waters.
Seems to me what the OP is trying for is to retain UK reg and the sellers name on the boats documents to evade liability for VAT if/when he hits an EU port.
Maybe I misunderstood his posts to date, maybe he could better explain his reasoning behind this gambit.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well the impression I get is the boat is UK owned and registered but the OP is an EU citizen. If the boat is in the UK it becomes liable for VAT as soon as it enters UK waters.
Seems to me what the OP is trying for is to retain UK reg and the sellers name on the boats documents to evade liability for VAT if/when he hits an EU port.
Maybe I misunderstood his posts to date, maybe he could better explain his reasoning behind this gambit.

Maybe, but .....

If it's already a UK boat, wouldn't it presumably have UK VAT paid already? Doesn't UK VAT stay with the boat? If it does, there is no VAT due for entering the UK.

As far as taking a UK VAT paid boat to the EU, I believe EU residents don't have the temporary import rules as an option and those rules don't apply to foreign registered boats primarily cruised by EU resident. So if the EU says the old UK VAT doesn't cover the EU, he still owes EU VAT as soon as he enters the EU.

I will admit, it takes a bit of mental gymnastics to sort out and yes, the OP would need to clarify but on a $5k boat, it sounds like a lot more complication than just paying the $1k VAT.

[boatman61]

Its my understanding that UK boats in the EU have until the end of the year to get back to the UK, after that they will be liable for UK VAT.. hence so many Brit boats popping up for sale around the Med.
Not worth the time/expense of getting them home before the deadline.
Brit boats were supposed to retain their EU VAT status if they were in an EU port on the night of the final Exit, however according to some reports it seems countries like Greece have chosen to renege on this agreement.

[sailingchiro]

INSURANCE!!! Insurance dictates the arrangement. If he leases it to you, then the insurance will be a commercial policy for him. If he is making money from the venture then the insurance may require a guide (you). Plus they will limit your cruising area.
Same as renting a house to you, it is a commercial insurance policy. For a $5000 boat?

[Jim Cate]

As I see it, there is zero advantage to the owner in accommodating this weird scheme. Why in the world would he undertake such a risky adventure with no gain to be had?

Jim

[goboatingnow]

From a VAT perspective , a EU tax resident buying a U.K. boat ( which resides in the U.K.) post Brexit will pay EU VAT immediately on arrival in the first EU port.

The tax law has the concept of “ beneficial owner “, also EU vat law is specific that unless employed by the owner , you will be regarded as the beneficial owner, lease or no lease

Don’t fool yourself. Just factor in the tax.

Leasing will make it complicated every time you are asked for your boat papers as you will not appear to be the owner,marinas etc will then require authorisation from the owner

It’s simply unworkable

[mamazgdyni]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well the impression I get is the boat is UK owned and registered but the OP is an EU citizen. If the boat is in the UK it becomes liable for VAT as soon as it enters UK waters.
Seems to me what the OP is trying for is to retain UK reg and the sellers name on the boats documents to evade liability for VAT if/when he hits an EU port.
Maybe I misunderstood his posts to date, maybe he could better explain his reasoning behind this gambit.

The idea is get in to the boat and sail away with as little paper work as possible thus seeking advice for unforeseen issues for any of us (possible trouble/problems) in the future . I want to be fair with the guy if i would decide to ask him for such "favour" and list the upside for me ( no bothersome paperwork , only changing name on the mmsi )and the possible downsides for him ( i think of buying full insurance for example for the cost of removing the boat from a reef or if i crash in to someone/ scratch someones paint in the marina, and the like)

ps

Or please advise me on your recommendable experience with new boat owner registering his vessel

I came across polish registry ... but browsing through polish forum i found out that it is not as smooth as advertised , otherwise there are advertisements of agents that possibly have people on the inside for 500 $ all you need to do is send Bill of sale , photo of the enigne with the factory plate clearly readable, MMSI data and they will email you within 2 days a temporary registration certificate and a full one withing a month <miraculous wonders made possible by money)

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by mamazgdyni

The idea is get in to the boat and sail away with as little paper work as possible thus seeking advice for unforeseen issues for any of us (possible trouble/problems) in the future . I want to be fair with the guy if i would decide to ask him for such "favour" and list the upside for me ( no bothersome paperwork , only changing name on the mmsi )and the possible downsides for him ( i think of buying full insurance for example for the cost of removing the boat from a reef or if i crash in to someone/ scratch someones paint in the marina, and the like)



ps



Or please advise me on your recommendable experience with new boat owner registering his vessel



I came across polish registry ... but browsing through polish forum i found out that it is not as smooth as advertised , otherwise there are advertisements of agents that possibly have people on the inside for 500 $ all you need to do is send Bill of sale , photo of the enigne with the factory plate clearly readable, MMSI data and they will email you within 2 days a temporary registration certificate and a full one withing a month &lt;miraculous wonders made possible by money)

Dude , if you register on the polish register , you are the legal owner as you will have offered a bill of sale

Seriously. Just do the appropriate paperwork like everyone else. It’s not onerous , you pay over the agreed sum , The owner signs a bill of sale (which you should get notarised )

That’s it

Registration is really your issue not the sellers anyway. If you country doesn’t require registration then great , just get a deflagging cert ( if part 1 registered ) you will need to ensure you have the correct paperwork needed to complete whatever registration you intend to acquire.

If your country requires registration. Then simply follow the rules.

Otherwise it simply looks like you are seeking advice on how to break laws

Polish registry is straightforward and cheap if you speak polish and have a polish mail address

Otherwise you use a registration agent , and no they don’t have someone “ on the inside “ it’s not needed they just follow the registration rules and have the language skills and mail addresses that you don’t have.

Note that in Europe MMSIs will only be issued to people offering official bill of sale documentation or national registration documents.

( there is mounting concern that the polish registry is being used to register non VAT paid boats that are owned by EU tax residents., several registries have already been questioned by French , Italian and Greek customs. Poland is reviewing its requirements for registration to tighten up VAT paid proof, so the window for this abuse is closing )

[jmschmidt]

Certain long-term "rental" agreements can be classified as sales of an asset with the same legal and tax ramifications.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it may be classified as a duck.