Another broker scam, or am I being paranoid?

[33trippindaisy]

As in low five figure boat owners are not real sailors? Or just not real Customers? Sadly, your comment is a bit well, let us say.......uppity. How's that fit? I for one spent the last ten years of my employment as a F&I Manager for a five line GM Dealership, including both Chevrolet and Cadillac. Just an old Soldier, and then a Cop, who certainly never had the money to buy a real yacht, LOL! But what I did buy, I paid cash for, and everything I own is paid for or I don't own it and don't want it. But enough about me. This is about Broker actions and perceptions. As I said if you don't want to sell it, then don't list it. Don't treat a Cadillac buyer like a Chevy Metro buyer? Why not? They are both spending their own, hard earned money, on a dream they have likely had for years. Give them the respect they deserve, or simply don't list boats.....list yachts and wait for your dream sale. Think here....most Brokers probably wish any boat under 40k would simply just be listed by the owner on boats.com or Sailboatlistings.com. Thats because they need those super big sells to pay for "their" big boats and big houses (that they actually might not be able to afford), but must keep up the look! I always found that incredible. And common! I say it again, if you don't want to sell it, then don't list it. Let someone who understands how to respect and care for a customer and their individual buying abilities and needs. Usually, we all buy the best we can afford to buy, but let us agree the dream and enjoyment of ownership is not bound up to one particular group based on economics.......it just is not. The pride in owning a Cape Dory 27 is simply overwhelming for many of us, every day, every time we step on board.......it's just the way it is. Just to be fully honest, should I hit the lottery today, my boat would start growing quite fast......again the "Dream" is the "Dream", and the reality is just that. We all enjoy what we have. When it's paid for, the enjoyment is even greater. Cheers to you all, this comment is not a hit on anyone other than the those making the mistakes of treating people other than they should be treated.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by 33trippindaisy

As in low five figure boat owners are not real sailors? Or just not real Customers? Sadly, your comment is a bit well, let us say.......uppity. How's that fit?
...

Cheers to you all, this comment is not a hit on anyone other than the those making the mistakes of treating people other than they should be treated.

I think you missed the main point, which is simply that a low 5-figures boat doesn't yield that much profit to a brokerage when weighed against the effort required to sell it. So they might try to earn fees on the title transfer and documenting as well -which is often a valuable and appreciated service.

As we know, most boats in that price range and below are sold by the owner, without a broker.

And I didn't see anywhere in this thread where anyone was justifying bad treatment because of the lower price.

Until that lottery win, I am and will always be in the inexpensive boat camp.

[PaulSommers]

In 2010 I bought a resgistered Canadian-built boat in Chester, Nova Scotia, Canada, de-registered it myself ($50 sounds right), documented it myself in the US before bringing the boat into the US (don't remember the fee), sailed it around North and Central America, and eventually got to Washington State, where I obtained the required state registration and had to pay the state use tax to do so. No import fee when I crossed from Nova Scotia into Maine in my US documented vessel.

I recommend this process, which involves keeping the boat in Canada for a few months, if you ever MIGHT want US Coast Guard documentation for international sailing. Not need for just zipping back and forth between WA and BC with state registration, but if you want to head for Mexico or any other country, you need the Coast Guard registration. So keep it simple while you can - de-register it in Canada and get the US Coast Guard registration before bringing it into the US. You can have some work done on the boat in Canada if necessary to get an extended period in Canada beyond the 90 days they normally give a visiting boat. I had the bottom painted on my boat during the 6 mo. it spent in Chester before I showed up and sailed it across to Maine and on south.

[PaulSommers]

Oops - I just noticed in your original post that you are talking about a Cape Dory 27. I don't think you can document a boat under 30 feet in the US. So you may not need to worry about de-registering in Canada if you are going to bring it to WA and get state registration. You could check with any licensing office in Seattle about all of this before you seal the deal and sail across the border. They may refer you to the people in Olympia in state government who actually make the decisions, but they have seen this situation before I assure you and they are honest people who will help you figure out what you have to do. You definitely have to pay the use tax. The other stuff the agent is trying to sell you is not necessary. Your seller may have some problems with his agent however since the agent seems to have spent some cash.

[picklesandjesse]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Until that lottery win, I am and will always be in the inexpensive boat camp.

At this late stage in life I am in the same club. I feel a few more might be joining in the next few years too!! Won't be so exclusive then.

[CarinaPDX]

The minimum requirement for USCG documentation (not "registration") is 5 tons. This is not the displacement, but the result of a formula of linear dimensions (check the USCG site for details). The Cape Dory 27 would be close but I suspect would be large enough to document. Easy to check, and these dimensions will be needed for the documentation process anyway. Otherwise, just check if other CD 27's are documented - they would have the same dimensions!

Greg

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

The minimum requirement for USCG documentation (not "registration") is 5 tons. This is not the displacement, but the result of a formula of linear dimensions (check the USCG site for details). The Cape Dory 27 would be close but I suspect would be large enough to document. Easy to check, and these dimensions will be needed for the documentation process anyway. Otherwise, just check if other CD 27's are documented - they would have the same dimensions!

Greg

Small correction ...
Tonnage is a measure of volume not linear dimensions.

Transport Canada Appointed Tonnage Measurer.

[john61ct]

So if a US citizen is travelling internationally in a smaller boat, they are forced to use a flag of convenience registry?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by john61ct

So if a US citizen is travelling internationally in a smaller boat, they are forced to use a flag of convenience registry?

No, they can cross internationl borders with just a State registration. If the boat measures over 5 gross tons then they can Federally Document it (which is more familiar to most officials).

[john61ct]

I think you'd likely end up with "complications" showing up in tiny third world countries with just a state level registration.

In the new world, likely not as much, but Asia Pacific, Europe, Africa?

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by kokajambo

Thanks for all of the reassurances!

I've looked up a couple of more things, and indeed when applying for national registration of the boat in Canada and Australia, they want proof of deletion form previous registration. I haven't gotten official answer from USCG on it yet though, working on it. That'd still explain only $50 in extra fees.

Another update:
I've got the seller involved, and am now thinking that they are the ones who might suffer real loss in this situation:
- Their broker/agent owes them a fiduciary duty, and is supposed to act in seller's best interest.
- Now, if they drive the buyer away by insisting that we use their buddy's Shady Closing Company (who in turn attempts to charge me extra $750 in fees that were not part of the original purchase agreement), the agent might be in a breach of contract with the seller, because it's their sale that falls thru.
- Furthermore, if the agent is materially interested in using that specific closing company (eg gets a share of their fees), it might constitute a bribe.

Now you're losing track of your mission. Stop playing lawyer or cop. By all means continue to research what you need to do, just say no to the "experts" fees, tell them you'll handle that and move forward. Good luck with the new boat.

[kokajambo]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

Now you're losing track of your mission. Stop playing lawyer or cop. By all means continue to research what you need to do, just say no to the "experts" fees, tell them you'll handle that and move forward. Good luck with the new boat.

Amen!

[skenn_ie]

Ireland, and I suspect most countries, have a temporary registration which allows you to fly the flag as the vessel is moved. Then, we get the vessel inspected once we reach our own country. All I needed was a Bill of Sale to get that, but 1) we have a very relaxed regime between here and the

UK, and 2) being ex-military, there never had been a civil registration on this boat.

[argonauta1]

Problem is the vendor has engaged an agent. I would refuse to go through the agent, buy the boat privately and export it. You are done. You might even avoid paying the Canadian sales tax as a private vendor is not obligated to pay sales tax on the buyer's behalf. You as a US buyer then simply sail it down to say Friday Harbor and register it.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Capn Jimbo

"Broker" and "Scam" are synonymous. Or is it "scum"? It's just the way it is. I used to think used car salesmen were the worst, but then I had to and work with real estate brokers. But then I discovered the scum of the earth, boat brokers.

Believe me there is nothing to be done that an average person can't do. At $1600 that represents over 100 hours based on the pay of most Americans, and to DIY seems obvious. Since the market has become so fragmented and simply lousy for sailboats, the good brokers have left for greener pastures, while leaving the part timers and bozos who don't have a clue, don't know the boats they are selling, misrepresent them, ad infinitum.

When you asked your question, I suspect you already knew the answer, and you were right. Such is life.

Carry on.

So, why are they called 'brokers' instead of 'used boat salesmen/women'? I guess the legal difference is that the broker does not own the boat but the used car person (actually their employer, but not the former user of the car) person does own the car?
Broker sounds nice and high-minded, whereas we all know that used car salesman/wo is mostly synonymous with sleazy practices.