Yet another COLREGS situation

[BigBoater917]

If nothing else, we always seem to have a lively discussion every winter about the rules. It certainly passes the time.

[Rob_P]

I think it's incumbent on me to point out that this thread wasn't about pointing fingers at anyone or asking for a critique of me freezing at the helm worse than a deer in the headlights.

As far as I know, the power boat got away with it. My instructor didn't even remember the incident and that tells me that no one really cares until after there's a floating debris field.

Which kind of says that the COLREGS aren't there for anything other than assigning blame after the fact. When someone needs to be held accountable, then the regs are used to crucify them. If there's no blood, then there's no foul and the regs be damned.

I can work with that.


And, for those who asked...

NO, I didn't have a motoring cone up. (A WHAT???)
NO, I didn't try to call him on the radio. (Lesson #5, I think.)
NO, I didn't give him a toot or five on the horn. (Not even the finger.)


It was my 2nd sailing lesson in a small 22 foot Catalina and by the time I could react to what was happening, it was over. Well, except for bashing through his wake. The waves were higher than the mast!!! and we barely survived.**



** Obligatory Drama Llama statement.

[Scratchee]

I didn't read through the entire thread, but I saw the first couple pages. The situation you described reminds me of taking a new driver through a parking lot. There are rules, there are customs, and there are unique things that happen now and then. Sometimes in a parking lot, it makes sense for two oncoming cars to pass right-to-right instead of the normal left-to-left. Sometimes it doesn't make sense but someone does it anyway because they're in a hurry. Sometimes it's "your turn" but you have to hold up anyway because someone nudged in front of you for whatever reason. The important thing is, don't hit anything. The rules are the baseline for how you accomplish that. That's the lesson for the new driver. It sounds to me like you did just fine.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Scratchee

I didn't read through the entire thread, but I saw the first couple pages. The situation you described reminds me of taking a new driver through a parking lot. There are rules, there are customs, and there are unique things that happen now and then. Sometimes in a parking lot, it makes sense for two oncoming cars to pass right-to-right instead of the normal left-to-left. Sometimes it doesn't make sense but someone does it anyway because they're in a hurry. Sometimes it's "your turn" but you have to hold up anyway because someone nudged in front of you for whatever reason. The important thing is, don't hit anything. The rules are the baseline for how you accomplish that. That's the lesson for the new driver. It sounds to me like you did just fine.

Wot ^^^He^^^ Sed..

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Nani Kai

All in all you did the right thing. In fact, several right things. I concur with your conclusion that an attentive skipper coming into any harbor who sees two sailboats exiting should assume they are under sail alone unless further evidence indicates otherwise. However, this M/V yahoo probably wouldn't understand the difference.

When teaching each of my children to drive I told them to assume that every other driver on the road was trying to hit them; consequently they should drive defensively at all times. They all turned out to be excellent drivers.

I apply the same attitude on the water. I have no idea what the other captain is gonna do. As it pertains to the COLREGS, I know what he's supposed to do. I also know what's expected of me so I do that and watch to make sure he does what's expected of him, all the while being prepared for him to do something else.

Lastly, the sailboat overtaking you was making a poor decision under the circumstances as described. If you had the opportunity to safely do so, contacting that vessel on VHF and asking him to delay overtaking you until you cleared the channel might have been advisable and was within your rights as the vessel being overtaken.

Ya did good. Keep it up.

I completely agree.

Assume that others on the water do not know the Rules and expect they will do something stupid.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Which kind of says that the COLREGS aren't there for anything other than assigning blame after the fact. When someone needs to be held accountable, then the regs are used to crucify them. If there's no blood, then there's no foul and the regs be damned.

I don't agree with that conclusion.


The COLREGS (and the inland rules) save lives. They make for a less stressful and more pleasant time on the water. Responsible mariners learn them, learn the important things about how they are applied that are not part of the rules themselves, and follow them.


You will often encounter boaters who don't follow the rules out of ignorance, apathy, entitlement, or malice. There is nothing you can do about that, and there is no effective enforcement.


But you do get to choose which side you're on

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I don't agree with that conclusion.


The COLREGS (and the inland rules) save lives. They make for a less stressful and more pleasant time on the water. Responsible mariners learn them, learn the important things about how they are applied that are not part of the rules themselves, and follow them.


You will often encounter boaters who don't follow the rules out of ignorance, apathy, entitlement, or malice. There is nothing you can do about that, and there is no effective enforcement.


But you do get to choose which side you're on

Did "the Regs" actually prevent anything in the outlined situation I originally posted? Or was it just luck?

There are reasons for rules. For example, we who drive on roads and highways all know we're supposed to stop at stop signs. Yet you will occasionally find someone who scoffs at that and blows right through them. On the other hand, you will rarely find a driver who doesn't know they're supposed to stop.

Contrast that with boating. The end result may be the same, the occasional accident, but the difference is knowledge. If one knows and still breaks the law, then they can be punished until they modify their nonconforming and dangerous behavior before it harms someone else.

How do you school the ignorant who aren't required to know anything before they transgress? Especially when there's no enforcement mechanism OR requirement to know the rules. In such a case ignorance would be a valid excuse to escape culpability until liability attaches after harm is caused.

At which point the COLREGS get used to point the finger of blame.

Maybe insurers should start requiring certification of knowledge of the COLREGS as a condition for insurance liability coverage? Or (maybe a better idea) a certification of COLREGS competence could be used to reduce your premium.

[Jammer]

Nearly all collisions resulting in serious injury or property damage, exclusively involving smaller boats (under, say, 60'), are caused either by a failure of watchkeeping on one or both vessels or by an inebriated person at the helm.


This is why law enforcement and insurance don't care.


It is my experience that the vast majority of larger sailboats and about half of the larger cabin cruisers and trawlers more or less follow the rules. And about 80% of the commercial traffic.


You should follow the rules too. But you should not let boats that don't screw up your boating experience.

[Nani Kai]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

...... Especially when there's no enforcement mechanism OR requirement to know the rules.......

At which point the COLREGS get used to point the finger of blame.

Or (maybe a better idea) a certification of COLREGS competence could be used to reduce your premium.

ALL boaters are required to know the COLREGS and there is enforcement of the rules. Sometimes the Coast Guard enforces the rules if they see a flagrant violation but often it is the Marine Police in a given area. Over a 50+ year career I have been "pulled" over by both. Ignorance of the law does not relieve any boater of the consequences of their actions. Sometimes there are different opinions on what the COLREGS mean and which rule applies in a given situation, but all of us are expected to comply with the regulations. Should a collision or other accident occur the COLREGS are the law by which culpability and responsibility are determined. Just like automobile traffic laws.

As for certification of COLREGS competence reducing your insurance premium the idea is brilliant! It's a win-win for everyone. I'm amazed the insurance companies don't promote that idea. It would save them money in the long run and would make boating safer for us all.

[Leighpilot]

Remember that the standard Colregs apply only to boats operating in displacement mode. If he was planing he has no rights and must just give way to the slower boats. At least that how in remember it from my Merchant Navy days. Which were a long time ago.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Leighpilot

Remember that the standard Colregs apply only to boats operating in displacement mode. If he was planing he has no rights and must just give way to the slower boats. At least that how in remember it from my Merchant Navy days. Which were a long time ago.

I don't recall this - and I've actually READ the Colregs.

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I have joined in the discussion of the 2 most recent threads on this subject, but would like some input on another situation that recently happened to me.

Facts:

Channel Islands Harbor in California has a "T" shaped harbor mouth. You can only exit from the harbor to the north or south because there is a breakwater across the mouth of the harbor.

There are currently dredging operations going on with some sort of large discharge outlet occupying the north entrance to the harbor. Some traffic can/does go through but most traffic is currently using the south entrance to avoid the discharge apparatus.

There are piled rock jetty's on each side of the harbor leading toward the breakwater which limit visibility for smaller craft to the right/left as they leave the harbor.



Situation:

I'm a new sailor taking lessons in a Catalina 22. We were motoring with the main up toward the harbor exit with plans on taking the south exit as usual. I had an overtaking sailboat behind, also motoring with the main up. The tide was out making the channel narrower than at any other water level so I was staying toward the center of the channel for both keel clearance and to avoid the discharge thingy to my starboard that was noisily spraying water.

A non commercial motor vessel, approx 1/8 mile outside the harbor, was approaching the harbor entrance at a fairly fast speed. I estimate maybe 15 knots or so but I'm not positive of that, just that it was a lot faster than I was going. He was to my port side. His boat was between 30 and 40 feet long.


What happened:

The motor vessel to my port passed across my bow, went between me and the breakwater then turned to pass between me and the discharge unit, and then threaded the needle between me and the overtaking sailboat behind.

I enjoyed the thrill ride of his wake as we bounced through it.


Analysis:

This turned out to be a "2 motor vessels crossing" situation but should have been a "2 vessels approaching head on" situation. I was to his starboard and was, under the rules for either situation, the stand on vessel. Giving way would have required that I either turn to starboard, potentially cutting off the overtaking sailboat behind me and/or grounding on the side of the channel or hitting the discharge thingy. Turning to port, into the crossing motor vessel would have potentially resulted in a head on collision.

My status as a motor vessel would have been unable to have been determined by the power boat early on because of the jetty blocking his view. However my main was up and that was above the height of the jetty and should have been visible to the power boat as I approached the harbor mouth. The sailboat behind me was also motoring with his main up and that boat was at least 30 feet or so long with a taller mast. Both of our sails should have been visible over the top of the jetty. Our propulsion status from his point of view would at that time have been either sail powered or undetermined.

There was sufficient depth and room for the powerboat to pass on my port side as he entered the harbor. It might have been tight, but I'm absolutely positive he could have done it with several feet to spare between his boat and mine. We were, at minimum, 30 - 40 feet away from the jetty on his side. I would like to say there was 40 - 50 feet between us and the jetty but can't be sure of that after the fact. The jetty slope is fairly steep and there would be 3 - 4 feet of clear depth as close as 10 feet away even at low tide.

All I could do at the moment the power boat decided to cross my bow was stand on until I had enough room to steer to port and pass behind his stern. I have no idea if the sailboat behind me said unkind words out loud or not.


The dilemma and need for advice:

I'm not really concerned about who was right, and who was wrong, I was the stand-on vessel and doing my part under the rules although I only know this after reflection - I did not know this at the moment. Yet I keep thinking about it and wondering if I did the right thing. As a noob I don't have the automatic reaction speed to act quickly when things get crazy. What actually happened was that I froze for about a minute, and then turned to port after he was out of my way.

Which now raises the dilemma; can I trust that other mariners will act according to the COLREGS or is it total anarchy out there? And, if it's anarchy, then is the only real purpose of the COLREGS nothing more than a device used to assign blame after the fact?

Just like on a highway or streets, there will always be those who refuse to follow the rules. Hence why the Regs note in the end, its up to both vessels to avoid a collision.

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

I don't recall this - and I've actually READ the Colregs.

Me either and I have a 200 ton Masters cert

[guyrj33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post
I don't recall this - and I've actually READ the Colregs.
Me either and I have a 200 ton Masters cert"

Would a high speed foiling ferry have to slow to displacement speed???? Somehow that doesn't seem right.

[dpreacher]

Washington State in the US Northwest now requires a boat license for vessels not human-powered and over 16 ft, if I recall correctly. Hopefully this will reduce the number of incidents caused by simple ignorance of the rules.