Stick to COLREGS or keep out of my way ?

[philiosophy]

I am a retired Master. The biggest problem I had was pleasure boats not having their VHF on so I could talk to them

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by philiosophy

I am a retired Master. The biggest problem I had was pleasure boats not having their VHF on so I could talk to them

As a pleasure boater, this drives me crazy sometimes too. Smaller powerboats often either don't have a VHF or it's never on. Sailboats are better about having it on, but it's 50/50 on whether they can actually hear it from the helm. Way too many only have a VHF at the nav table down below and can't hear the thing when they're at the helm, so it may as well be off.

On the other hand, I try to always be reachable as much as possible. I've got dual VHFs at the helm and if I'm not on a working channel talking to someone, one is on 13, the other on 9/16 dual watch. If I'm in a VTS area, I'll drop my watch on 9 and monitor 13, 16, VTS. And if I'm on a working channel for a while, I drop channel 9 and have the working channel on one VHF, 13/16 on the other.

[David Mathis]

Seeing the remains of a sailboat (no clue as to the outcome of the occupants or even where the collision occurred) wrapped around the bow of a freighter may cause one to put more thought into the answer for that question. It appears that, according to COLREGS, the sailing vessel was the stand on vessel.

[Rasselas36]

I have found in my 40 years that large ship skippers have always been courteous and give clear instructions (keep to port/starboard, etc.) to keep them and me safe.

[st0nes]

All vessels are required to obey the colregs. But bear in mind that small craft are often quite hard to see from the bridge of a large ship ( I sailed in some container vessels where anything on the surface within about one and a half miles of my vessel was obscured by the containers on deck) and their radar echo can be lost in the sea clutter.

That said, if the pleasure craft starts manouvering to avoid collision when she is the stand-on vessel, it can undo the efforts of the larger vessel which is trying to obey the regs herself. Better to stand on until it is apparent that the larger vessel has not seen you before attempting any manouvres. And please, please, leave the VHF alone!

[requiem]

Originally Posted by David Mathis

Seeing the remains of a sailboat (no clue as to the outcome of the occupants or even where the collision occurred) wrapped around the bow of a freighter may cause one to put more thought into the answer for that question.

Not really sure what this ↓↓↓ has to do with this ↑↑↑ if someone is actually following ColRegs.

Originally Posted by David Mathis

It appears that, according to COLREGS, the sailing vessel was the stand on vessel.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by st0nes

All vessels are required to obey the colregs. But bear in mind that small craft are often quite hard to see from the bridge of a large ship ( I sailed in some container vessels where anything on the surface within about one and a half miles of my vessel was obscured by the containers on deck) and their radar echo can be lost in the sea clutter.

I think you're exaggerating a bit:

Extract from SOLAS 1974 (as amended) Ch V Regulation 22 Navigation bridge visibility :
Ships of not less than 45 m in length, as defined in regulation III/3.12, constructed on or after 1 July 1998, shall meet the following requirements:

The view of the sea surface from the conning position shall not be obscured by more than two ship lengths, or 500 m, whichever is less, forward of the bow to 108 on either side under all conditions of draught, trim and deck cargo;

That said, if the pleasure craft starts manouvering to avoid collision when she is the stand-on vessel, it can undo the efforts of the larger vessel which is trying to obey the regs herself. Better to stand on until it is apparent that the larger vessel has not seen you before attempting any manouvres. And please, please, leave the VHF alone!

Absolutely!

[bermynick]

Maddest thing I ever saw re COLREGS v. yield to superior tonnage was build up to Desert Shield; we were en route from BDA to SXM on a 40' Bristol. First light, same latitude as Chesapeake, saw a mast head light coming over the horizon. We were on a collision course, and as we were deciding whether to alter to take his stern here comes another, then another and another! Maybe 12 in all USN, dead straight line, spaced you'd imagine to the nearest inch!

Now a conundrum; if we take his stern and mis-time it it puts us in the path of the next one. We're still pondering when they very obviously slow to allow US to pass. Hats off to pro's at sea!!

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by David Mathis

Seeing the remains of a sailboat (no clue as to the outcome of the occupants or even where the collision occurred) wrapped around the bow of a freighter may cause one to put more thought into the answer for that question. It appears that, according to COLREGS, the sailing vessel was the stand on vessel.

Thats quite obvious, neither vessel was keeping a proper lookout.

I am amazed watching a Zatara video when they are on passage about how distracted they are at night when one person is on watch.

Playing video games, making videos, sitting inside oblivious to what is 100m in front of them.

This is what the push button, none navigator is being shown as the new standard[emoji849]

[Kaimana]

One of the things I learned about COLREGS and practical sailing tactics:

It’s night, and I’m singlehanding my Searunner 37 trimaran from the anchorage in Sausalito to the anchorage on Treasure island, to meet a friend there the next day and take him sailing. It’s a beautiful night, and I'm sailing wing and wing directly downwind with the genoa and main out in 2-3 knots of wind. The boat’s going the same speed as the wind; there is no perceptible wind on the boat. Very peaceful and quiet. That’s important for what’s next.

I’ve gotten out into the Bay a ways, and see something coming from the direction of Berkeley that looks like it might be on a potential collision course with us. It’s got two vertical white lights and the usual running lights, so “tug, without tow”, of course. Then the tug gets a bit closer and I can see it clearly, confirming that it is a tug. It’s doing about 7 knots.

Don’t think any more of it until I’m passing astern of the tug, and I hear hissing. A hissing noise. Huh. Then I notice a whole section of the Berkeley lights getting blocked out by what’s behind the tug: the moving black shadow of a huge steel barge with no running lights.

The hissing noise is the sound of the 2-1/2 inch wire towline passing through the water at 7 knots, 150 feet dead ahead of me on this quiet night. I spin the wheel 180 degrees, jump downstairs to fire up my huge 6 hp diesel engine, and motor directly upwind away from the wire and barge.

This doesn't look very seaman-like: the genoa and genoa sheets are flapping gently against the mast and rigging, and the main is also flapping amidships with slack sheets. By the time I get the engine started and the boat completely turned away from death, I see the wire rising up out of the water 50 feet dead astern, and the barge about 200 feet away off the starboard stern of the boat, doing 7 knots.

When I can see we are pulling steadily away from the tug and barge, I start putting the boat in order, and trying to slow my heart rate down a bit.

What did I learn about the COLREGS from this?

1. The other guy is often not paying attention, or is, and just doesn’t care. I had running lights on identifying me as a sailboat. I had radar reflectors all over my boat, plus a 50-foot aluminum mast. Visibility was 12 miles plus on a clear night, in deep water with unrestricted navigation, 3 miles from the nearest shore or shoal.

2. Running lights can lie, burn out, or people forget to turn the right ones on. By the law, the barge should have had at least red/green, stern light, and some kind of mast light. It had NO LIGHTS. It’s up to you to determine what’s out there, especially at night, regardless of what lights it is or isn’t showing, and get out of its way!

3. I needed to expand my “event horizon”. Instead of letting the beauty of the quiet night lull me into a sense of false security and comfort, and just paying attention to what was within a 1 mile radius, I should have had my feelers out about three miles further than they were. I would have picked up on the tug with wrong lights and the black space that meant “barge” a lot sooner. Then I could have enjoyed the night, knowing I was looking into the future far enough to safeguard me and my boat.

4. Who cares if you’re right if you get run down? If you want to be right, get a paintball gun as part of your boat’s equipment, and write your name on the side of the offender. Pam pam pam pam! Then give their corporate offices a polite call the next day and ask them to improve their driving habits.

With Warm Aloha, Tim

[jmh2002]

I'll add that a good pair of binnoculars are very useful, even at night - in fact especially at night.

You may have been able to check if there was a barge in tow.

I use binnoculars all the time, even on a large vessel with two radars running, crew on the bridge, etc, etc.

On a small boat I think they are invaluable too. They don't cost too much, they don't need electricity, they don't take up much space, and they don't need any special expertise to use.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by David Mathis

Seeing the remains of a sailboat (no clue as to the outcome of the occupants or even where the collision occurred) wrapped around the bow of a freighter may cause one to put more thought into the answer for that question. It appears that, according to COLREGS, the sailing vessel was the stand on vessel.

If so the sailing vessel apparently ignored Rule 17 (a) (ii) and contravened Rule 17 (b) (to say nothing of Rule 2 and other rules that it almost certainly contravened)

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Kaimana

[FONT=&quot]
Don’t think any more of it until I’m passing astern of the tug, and I hear hissing. A hissing noise. Huh. Then I notice a whole section of the Berkeley lights getting blocked out by what’s behind the tug: the moving black shadow of a huge steel barge with no running lights.


...

3. I needed to expand my “event horizon”. Instead of letting the beauty of the quiet night lull me into a sense of false security and comfort, and just paying attention to what was within a 1 mile radius, I should have had my feelers out about three miles further than they were. I would have picked up on the tug with wrong lights and the black space that meant “barge” a lot sooner. Then I could have enjoyed the night, knowing I was looking into the future far enough to safeguard me and my boat.

Hi Tim,

Thanks for posting! That bit about keeping your feelers out is really important. There's some large traffic out on the bay that it's best accounting for whilst there's still plenty of time to work with.

One other comment I'd make, without getting overly specific, is that two masthead lights indicate you have a sizeable problem ahead, even if the other lights are neglected. (An exercise for the reader...)

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Kaimana

One of the things I learned about COLREGS and practical sailing tactics:

It’s night, and I’m singlehanding my Searunner 37 trimaran from the anchorage in Sausalito to the anchorage on Treasure island, to meet a friend there the next day and take him sailing. It’s a beautiful night, and I'm sailing wing and wing directly downwind with the genoa and main out in 2-3 knots of wind. The boat’s going the same speed as the wind; there is no perceptible wind on the boat. Very peaceful and quiet. That’s important for what’s next.

I’ve gotten out into the Bay a ways, and see something coming from the direction of Berkeley that looks like it might be on a potential collision course with us. It’s got two vertical white lights and the usual running lights, so “tug, without tow”, of course. Then the tug gets a bit closer and I can see it clearly, confirming that it is a tug. It’s doing about 7 knots.

Don’t think any more of it until I’m passing astern of the tug, and I hear hissing. A hissing noise. Huh. Then I notice a whole section of the Berkeley lights getting blocked out by what’s behind the tug: the moving black shadow of a huge steel barge with no running lights.

The hissing noise is the sound of the 2-1/2 inch wire towline passing through the water at 7 knots, 150 feet dead ahead of me on this quiet night. I spin the wheel 180 degrees, jump downstairs to fire up my huge 6 hp diesel engine, and motor directly upwind away from the wire and barge.

This doesn't look very seaman-like: the genoa and genoa sheets are flapping gently against the mast and rigging, and the main is also flapping amidships with slack sheets. By the time I get the engine started and the boat completely turned away from death, I see the wire rising up out of the water 50 feet dead astern, and the barge about 200 feet away off the starboard stern of the boat, doing 7 knots.

When I can see we are pulling steadily away from the tug and barge, I start putting the boat in order, and trying to slow my heart rate down a bit.

What did I learn about the COLREGS from this?

1. The other guy is often not paying attention, or is, and just doesn’t care. I had running lights on identifying me as a sailboat. I had radar reflectors all over my boat, plus a 50-foot aluminum mast. Visibility was 12 miles plus on a clear night, in deep water with unrestricted navigation, 3 miles from the nearest shore or shoal.

2. Running lights can lie, burn out, or people forget to turn the right ones on. By the law, the barge should have had at least red/green, stern light, and some kind of mast light. It had NO LIGHTS. It’s up to you to determine what’s out there, especially at night, regardless of what lights it is or isn’t showing, and get out of its way!

3. I needed to expand my “event horizon”. Instead of letting the beauty of the quiet night lull me into a sense of false security and comfort, and just paying attention to what was within a 1 mile radius, I should have had my feelers out about three miles further than they were. I would have picked up on the tug with wrong lights and the black space that meant “barge” a lot sooner. Then I could have enjoyed the night, knowing I was looking into the future far enough to safeguard me and my boat.

4. Who cares if you’re right if you get run down? If you want to be right, get a paintball gun as part of your boat’s equipment, and write your name on the side of the offender. Pam pam pam pam! Then give their corporate offices a polite call the next day and ask them to improve their driving habits.

With Warm Aloha, Tim

Definately a pucker moment, but perhaps I misunderstand??
You said you saw a vesel with 2 masthead lights and assumed it was a tug
Well yes correct! .... that means it has a tow less than 200m in length. (3 masthead lights if greater)

here's a review

https://youtu.be/wYZsbLG8skE

[Kaimana]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Definitely a pucker moment, but perhaps I misunderstand?? You said you saw a vesel with 2 masthead lights and assumed it was a tug. Well yes correct! .... that means it has a tow less than 200m in length. (3 masthead lights if greater)

Thanks to Pelagic, your comment clarified this for me; I remember better what happened now, and what lights the tug did and didn't have. This was in 1974, and happened when I was 22, so my memory was a little hazy.

When I saw the tug's lights, I looked it up in my Coast Guard book, because I knew what 3 vertical lights meant (tug with tow), but hadn't remembered what 2 meant. And I hadn't seen any barge lights!

Here's the applicable section from the International And Inland regs closest to 1974 I could find (1995):

(a) A power driven vessel when towing shall exhibit:

• (i) instead of the light prescribed in Rule 23(a)(i) or (a)(ii), two masthead lights in a vertical line. When the length of the tow measuring from the stern of the towing vessel to the after end of the tow exceeds 200 meters, three such lights in a vertical line;
• (ii) sidelights;
• (iii) a sternlight;
• (iv) a towing light in a vertical line above the sternlight;

So, according, to my Coast Guard book, a tug with no tow less than 50 meters long is just a power vessel underway, and it should have had one white masthead light on, and NO yellow towing light; exactly what this tug displayed, except for the extraneous second vertical white masthead light.

This tug had NO (section iv above) yellow towing light, just the two masthead lights. The real kicker was that the barge had no lights whatsoever, and it should have had sidelights and a white stern light.

Because of the lack of barge lights and no yellow towing light on the tug, I erroneously concluded it was a tug with no tow that had accidentally turned on one too many of its three vertical masthead lights.

It WAS a pucker moment. Woohah! Again, thanks Pelagic.

With Warm Aloha, Tim