Did I have to give way? Plus short-long blast.

[Madehn]

"You clearly don’t possess a basic understanding of the rules, I suggest taking a Boating course. I spent several thousand USD on my 100 ton Captains course and the ICC certification offered by RYA, along with courses back in the 1970’s because I take my boating responsibilities seriously."

perhaps the license is in internet trolling

unfortunately i can't answer your original question. When it comes to licenses just remember that all Drs are licensed also-- AND 50% of them graduated in the bottom half of their class and are not particularly good at what they do--

[Tempest245]

Looking at the Chart and the coordinates given as the approximate position. It would appear that the OP was near Magnolia Bluff, NW of the special anchorage area.
And not in the Traffic Separation Zone.

It also occurs to me, having read some of the posts from folks familiar with the area, that there could be many recreation etc. vessels on the water. That has me thinking that the two different signals were just general alerts to the traffic in the area.
" Here I come take note" " I'm on my course, Danger" They can't take evasive action for every small boat out there.

I hear the 5 blasts all the time as ships leave ports and enter channels near me. The Fishing is always better in the deep dredged channel and there are numerous fishing boats etc. at any time in the channel. These big guys come up fast. If you're not paying attention, you don't hear them bow on. 5 blasts to let everyone know to get out of the way here is common. It's not usually directed at any one vessel.

The OP saw the boat, had a plan to evade. So no harm, no foul. The 2 questions were perfectly legitimate after action questions.

I think it was also mentioned that these ships cut the corner before entering the separation zone. That's important " Local" knowledge.

I generally monitor 16 and 13. The big guys near me will often communicate their arrivals, departures, etc on 13. special VTS zones may have another channel like 12 that they use. Just read above..that it's 14 out there.

[Montanan]

[mowerandy]

Ha - reminds me of a day many years ago sailing Botany Bay (Sydney, busy), the MD of my European business principal (ie my "boss") who also sails, was aboard my boat, and at the helm. Decides he is going to take right of way over a container ship at short range, refuses to take advice, or relinquish the helm!

Choices - lose job and business, or maybe we will make it...(or just jump over the side and leave him to it - quite a bit bigger than me he was)!

Thankfully the harbour pilot solved my dilemma by steaming straight at us at 25 knots with horn blaring a single continuous blast (this at about 200 yards and looking WAY to close to call a winner).

Surprised not to receive a very rude letter from the harbours board, but I daresay they've got my number now....

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by Madehn

"You clearly don’t possess a basic understanding of the rules, I suggest taking a Boating course. I spent several thousand USD on my 100 ton Captains course and the ICC certification offered by RYA, along with courses back in the 1970’s because I take my boating responsibilities seriously."

perhaps the license is in internet trolling

unfortunately i can't answer your original question. When it comes to licenses just remember that all Drs are licensed also-- AND 50% of them graduated in the bottom half of their class and are not particularly good at what they do--

I would have to agree with you. The guy often has very good replies when it comes to technical issues but seems to let his ego get into his way in dealing with people. The OP was simply asking for a clarification and did the prudent thing as far as the sailing event was concerned. Absolutely no need to desegregate him on a public forum.

[Montanan]

First sound signal - short, long: Likely meaning. "Ahoy there. Attention, Heads up, We are heading towards each other." Rule 36, if I recall.

Five short blasts: A message sent - "I do not understand your intentions." Also can imply when they are more meanancing then you: (Keep clear.) (I doubt whether YOU are taking sufficient action to avoid collision). (GET OUT OF THE WAY)"

Response:
You made your intentions very clear. You promptly tacked and gave way.

Prudent move. Collision avoided by actions of both vessels.

Intention and purpose of COLREGs accomplished - "to prevent collisions between two or more vessels."

Accomplishment:

Lived to enjoy sailing another day, and to be able to post this inquisitive and thought provoking thread to the CruisersForum and then to read and enjoy the reply postings.

All good.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

I would have to agree with you. The guy often has very good replies when it comes to technical issues but seems to let his ego get into his way in dealing with people. The OP was simply asking for a clarification and did the prudent thing as far as the sailing event was concerned. Absolutely no need to desegregate him on a public forum.

Internet.

[dfelsent]

I often find myself in Boston harbor. Not very busy except for tugs barges dredges cruise ships tankers and the dang LNG carriers. Oh yeah and a dozen or more fast ferries. And slow ferries. And maybe a ton of sailboats or so. And the powerboats too. The ferries are usually so much faster they just drive around everyone as if they are standing still. The ships? Channels 13 and 16.
As a WAFI I call them on 13 if in any doubt and clarify. They just want to mitigate their risk. They respond and it’s all good.
So maybe an answer to OP is to call on 13 when there is a question and clarify.

[Tornadosailing]

I would have ID'd him on AIS (you do have at least a receiver, don't you?), then gave him a call on 16, communicated how I was going to avoid him, whether that be ducking him or tacking, and asked him to kindly hold his course and speed.

If there was even a remote question about whether a ship or myself has the right of way, I assume he has the right of way. If I'm certain I have the right of way and for some reason think I need to stand on, I would still call and find out what the other skipper has in mind.

1/4 mile at the time you tacked would probably be a bit close for comfort. Not for me, but for the other skipper. As a fellow racer I understand that a boat length is giving away too much, but at what point is the ship captain going to assume he needs to take drastic measures and turn right into you as you tack? 10 seconds on the radio would have given everyone involved some peace of mind.

[Jammer]

I'm amazed at the amount of contradictory advice.


I listen to 13 and 16 at the helm, answer when hailed, and thought that everyone more or less did. Everyone (nearly all power and sail over about 25 feet) does here. ("Here" being the upper Mississippi)


It is hard for me to believe that a cruise ship would have no real responsibilities to recreational sailboats in the same area, as many posts seem to suggest.

[Gripfast]

My two cents,
Have no idea what the short, long means. I dont think being seperated by only a mile is scary either. You were right in that you were preparing to tack and avoid the situation. Tacking one mile out is about right for Chesapeke Bay sailing. But a small sailboat should not expect to be the stand on vessel in any engagement with a ship of anykind. There is too much you dont know about the ship.
Also, there us no right of way. You are either stand on, or give way.
But if you were considering that because the ship was a MV, and you were a SV, and therefore he was going to give way to you, I think that is not going to happen. I believe they consider themselves Restricted in Mauverability, and if a collision occures both would be at fault. Plus you would be dead.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

You keep linking to that document, but you don't seem to have read it yourself. There is no "tonnage rule" in it. If there is, I stand corrected, could you please refer me to the relevant section?

I think sometimes the "sailboat under 20m, vessel restricted etc" rule is referred to as the tonnage rule, erroneously.

Nowhere in any of my posts do I mention anything called a “tonnage rule.” You seem to have me mixed up with another post.

Dockhead did a very thorough job of answering the OP, but judging by the OP’s final post, he didn’t seem to appreciate the effort. IMO

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

The situation:

Puget sound, not far from Seattle. I was on a J-120 (40') under sail, on port tack. I was close-hauled, about a 1.5-2 miles from land, heading toward the shoreline. I intended to tack away when I got about 1/4 mile from shore.

Far to starboard, (at least 3 miles) I saw a cruise ship coming out of Seattle, roughly going to cross my course, roughly on a collision course, and picking up speed. She was paralleling the coast, probably as close as her draft would safely allow.

As we got closer, it became obvious that yes, we were on a collision course, and someone would have to give way. Maybe 1 mile and closing.

I felt I was the stand-on vessel. She was much bigger but she was not in a channel, and could very easily have turned 10 degrees to her port (away from shore) and passed my stern.

However, I'm not going to die asserting my rights, so I instructed my crew to prepare to tack out of the way, on the theory that tonnage prevails in these situations.

Just then, she blasted short-long. I don't know whether to be embarrassed or not, but I don't know what short-long means. But my crew was preparing to tack anyway. Not 15 seconds later, she blasts 5-short, which obviously I do know what that means! 3 seconds later, we tack away, and all ends well. We never came closer than about 1/4 of a mile. That sounds close, but Elliot bay has so much traffic, that in context, I don't think it was alarming.

Questions:
1) What does short-long mean? I searched around the internet a bit, and didn't see anything.

2) Was I really the stand-on vessel? I was under sail. I know lots of skippers think being under sail gives them rights over everyone, but I know that isn't the case. But she wasn't fishing, she wasn't in a channel, she had plenty of time to maneuver, and she wasn't restricted by draft (she needed to turn into deeper water).

Am I wrong? There isn't a tonnage exemption from the rules of the road, is there? I know vessels with limited maneuverability are stand-on, but she had plenty plenty plenty of time to turn just a few degrees and turn under my stern. If she turned when we were 3 miles away, she probably could have turned 3-4 degrees.

Thanks in advance for your input! If I was the one out of line, please let me know constructively. I posted to learn, not to have my ass spanked!

I fear the OP may have left the building...
However.... having looked at the chart... a couple of points....

No mention of the relative bearing of the cruise liner... was she on your quarter? frd of the beam?

I think the short-long may indeed have been a 'friendly little toot' to make sure you were aware of her presence. ( I received two toots and a bit a few years ago... my helm was over before she started the second toot.....
While not yet in the TSS she would have been building up to sea speed... unless local regs impose speed limits on traffic in Elliot Bay. You don't want to be entering the traffic stream at a dawdle...

Now why would her bridge team be loath to alter to port?.... mainly because no one wants to alter to port.... maybe because it would put her to the west and into conflict with inbound/southbound traffic ? I don't know as I wasn't there.

What looked simple for the OP may not have looked so simple from the bridge of the ship.

Altering very early for small craft in confined waters is problematic on a big ship.... small craft are just too unpredictable ...

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by Tempest245

The Short/Long blast ( Rule 36) was to get your attention and let you know they were coming. ( A signal that can't be can't be mistaken for any other signal) I would take that as a heads up that their intention was to maintain their course. I say that because, if I'm not mistaken with the situation, If they turned to port ( away from land ) to avoid you, and some point soon you would have had to also tack away from land potentially placing you in the path of their new direction again. I'm guessing here that the Captain may have been thinking a few moves ahead in this chess game.

It took 4 pages of pissing contest before I saw your interpretation of the short/long blast. This seems like the most viable explanation.

[morribabes]

For me it's simple. I stay out of the way of working boats. I'm just floating about, having fun. I don't need to get in the way of somebody earning a living.