All things COLREGS

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Jacko

I find it interesting that on a forum for " Cruising Sailors" that this has gone on for so long? yes I am a past racer and this sort of back and forward went on at the bar after just about every race day I am still involved in large Regattas and have to know the Colregs but am now a listener not a debater.

As I am now a dedicated cruising relaxed don't want any stress sailor the true " Right of way comes to mind" (He who has the biggest toys wins) so my play on this whole issue is just get out of the way. My sailing grounds include huge coal ships, car carriers, live stock carriers and my fellow cruisers I make way for all of them and give a good wave as they go by and enjoy the day Cheers

yeah, me too. Even at night if I see lights coming, I get out if the way.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Now this word 'obligation', is that a word in the COLREGS?

Yes, as also is the word "obliged".

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Yup...

Forget sailing and racing. I have been on this forum long enough to realize (and truly know) you can't convince everyone. Hell, statistics prove you can only get about 66%.

After a while it is just pig wrestling. RC and I will never cross paths on the sea. We likely will never cross paths at the YC bar. Him being correct or not has zero impact on my life or even my boating life.

But it takes 2 to tango so I am guilty as charged.

Actually RC totally gets the spirit of it so he may just be chain jerking now...

I'm not 'jerking' anyone's chain.
But I am responding to those of you insisting that someone is 'wrong' for using the terms 'right if way'. Because those people are not wrong. And you refer to 'sailors' as if they would never use the words 'right of way' and yet the official 'Racing rules of sailing', which are based on the COLREGS use the term 'right of way' when referring to the stand on vessel, Are they wrong?

And Ex-Cal, if your ever down my way, I'd gladly buy you a beer, maybe even a Scotch.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I'm not 'jerking' anyone's chain.
But I am responding to those of you insisting that someone is 'wrong' for using the terms 'right if way'. Because those people are not wrong. And you refer to 'sailors' as if they would never use the words 'right of way' and yet the official 'Racing rules of sailing', which are based on the COLREGS use the term 'right of way' when referring to the stand on vessel, Are they wrong?

And Ex-Cal, if your ever down my way, I'd gladly buy you a beer, maybe even a Scotch.

Look, mate! You start a thread entitled All Things COLREGS. Then you add a poll asking if boats have rights.

Then you get a bee in your bonnet when the members of one of the largest sailing forums in the world want to be specific?

Oh, and then you (sort of) refuse to acknowledge the results of your own poll.

I've said it before (like a magpie?) the only way to test who is correct is to screw up and get in front of a judge.

"But your honor, I had right of way" will be an interesting defense.


(Regards the scotch - don't be surprised - My mum was from Launceston and I have rellies in Melbourne.)

[El Pinguino]

Ho Hum.... I don't think I have worked with any 'landlubbers' although I have sailed with more than a few Bass Strait Cowboys.
The expression ' right of way' is used ... not as an absolute statement implying that you can stand on no matter what .. but in a general manner as in 'who has the right of way in this situation'.... same same 'who is the stand-on ship in this scenario'. Nada mas.
Can't recall ever seeing people in the real world getting bent out of shape over its use.
Had to come to CF to see that...

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Look, mate! You start a thread entitled All Things COLREGS. Then you add a poll asking if boats have rights.

Then you get a bee in your bonnet when the members of one of the largest sailing forums in the world want to be specific?

Oh, and then you (sort of) refuse to acknowledge the results of your own poll.

I've said it before (like a magpie?) the only way to test who is correct is to screw up and get in front of a judge.

"But your honor, I had right of way" will be an interesting defense.


(Regards the scotch - don't be surprised - My mum was from Launceston and I have rellies in Melbourne.)

Gees dude, calm down.

there is no poll asking if boats have rights
I've not refused to acknowledge the results Of the poll
And 'but your honour I had right of way' would be a very stupid defence if they did nothing at all to avoid a collision.

You don't have to be in this thread. If you can't control yourself 'mate' don't comment.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

There Is a difference between a right and an obligation, yes. But it is not 'vast' nor are they mutually exclusive.

When it comes down to the basics I, along with many government agencies and many many NGOs involved with the COLREGS simply choose not to place an absolute on the word 'rights'. In all the years I have been involved with the sea I've never heard of such insistence on getting the words right until I've joined CF. And that's because, I don't think it matters to most people. What does matter is that everyone operating a vessel does not have 'an absolute right' and to continue on your way and everyone else just has to avoid you.

In all seriousness, if someone asked me, 'hey RC what's this 'stand on' vessel mean?' My response would and is the same as many explain, 'ah that means you have the right of way'.

Now this word 'obligation', is that a word in the COLREGS?

If you were doing my yachtmaster course its a requirement to be able to quote the steering rules verbatim

Anyone claims rights of way on the open sea ( or even in sea lanes) is wrong , completely wrong , as countless admiralty judgements have confirmed. The onus lies on both parties to avoid collision , a right of way implies absolute permission to proceed , nothing exists in the COLREGS to support that notion

Note the rules are written and formulated in English and each term and section is VERY. Carefully constructed semantically to convey the required onus.

The fact that certain links you provided use the term in no way legitimises the fact. It merely confirms that these web pages were written by people , who in attempting to explain something simply have strayed from the thruth.

Equally those that argue "might is right " have simply in my opinion never sailed in high traffic areas. Try crossing the Dover straits or other places along the Northern European sea lanes using " might is right " you might as well stay in bed.

Perhaps it why around these places people like Carsten, Dockhead etc and I have to know and apply the rules properly

Dave

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Ho Hum.... I don't think I have worked with any 'landlubbers' although I have sailed with more than a few Bass Strait Cowboys.
The expression ' right of way' is used ... not as an absolute statement implying that you can stand on no matter what .. but in a general manner as in 'who has the right of way in this situation'.... same same 'who is the stand-on ship in this scenario'. Nada mas.
Can't recall ever seeing people in the real world getting bent out of shape over its use.
Had to come to CF to see that...

Exactly

It's a CF thing. But there are plenty of CF people who use the expression. But then there are a few, I don't think a lot, but they seem to be the usual ones, who get a bee in their bonnet that the term shouldn't be used. 'It's wrong'! They say.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Exactly

It's a CF thing. But there are plenty of CF people who use the expression. But then there are a few, I don't think a lot, but they seem to be the usual ones, who get a bee in their bonnet that the term shouldn't be used. 'It's wrong'! They say.

No professional mariner I know would use the term. Their ticket relies on them having a full and complete understanding of the COLREGS.

Its not a CF " thing ". Anyone using the term " right of way " generally displays their ignorance of the COLREGS and should be corrected forth with

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Gees dude, calm down.

there is no poll asking if boats have rights
I've not refused to acknowledge the results Of the poll
And 'but your honour I had right of way' would be a very stupid defence if they did nothing at all to avoid a collision.

You don't have to be in this thread. If you can't control yourself 'mate' don't comment.

This is getting surreal...

1/ Is the attached image not of a poll attached to this thread?

2/ If this statement

'but your honour I had right of way'

would be a stupid defense and you were the stand on vessel and if as you contend terminology doesn't matter, what would you say to the judge?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

.....
When it comes down to the basics I, along with many government agencies and many many NGOs involved with the COLREGS simply choose not to place an absolute on the word 'rights'. In all the years I have been involved with the sea I've never heard of such insistence on getting the words right until I've joined CF. And that's because, I don't think it matters to most people. What does matter is that everyone operating a vessel does not have 'an absolute right' and to continue on your way and everyone else just has to avoid you.

In all seriousness, if someone asked me, 'hey RC what's this 'stand on' vessel mean?' My response would and is the same as many explain, 'ah that means you have the right of way'.....

I usually don't get too concerned about what words are used but I can see are significant difference in meaning between " stand on" and "right of way".

Simply put: "Stand on" = maintain heading and speed - so that the burdened vessel can ascertain their best course of action to avoid a collision.
"Right of way" = keep going wherever I want to because everyone else has to get out of my way.

The first is an obligation that assists other waterway users to make a judgement to avoid any risk of collosion. The second suggests it doesn't matter what I do because I'm in the right and others have to get out of my way.

Even RC concedes that most Tassie drivers believe they have a "right of way"
thats absolves them from blame should a collision occurs even though this view is not supported by legislation. It is the phrase itself thats suggests it.

So why promote wording (eg right of way) that suggests something that isn't accurate when the more accurate wording (eg stand on) is avaliable as part of the nautical lanugage. I do find it interesting to consider there is less difference in meaning between "give way vessel" and "burdened vessel".

Yes I get it is an easy way to explain who should do what to new waterway user just like it is easier way to say pointy end instead bow or go to the back end instead of go to cockpit or go to the stern.

[Duct Tape]

The ColRegs are a very carefully crafted piece of legislation. The wording of each rule is such as to eliminate any other interpretation and to remove any grey areas.

Under the rules You are burdened with more obligations as a "stand on" vessel than you are as a "give way" vessel...

[TeddyDiver]

"right of way" stands only when there's nothing else anywhere in sight, and thus there's no need to cover such occasion in the Colregs.. IMHO of course

[sailorboy1]

I always find it funny a rules thread will get more disagreement than an anchor or gun thread

[monte]

Exactly what goatboatingnow said. Why try Change the specific wording to make sense of the situation in your own head? All it does is confuse other uninformed mariners. If you are explaining a crossing situation to a new crew member always use the terms stand on and give way. It helps clarify your obligations for a particular crossing with a particular vessel and also clearly defines that the COLREGS are not the sea version of the rules of the road. Also I would have dismally failed my coxswains certificate if I didn't know the COLREGS verbatim so why not learn and teach the right way from the beginning.
Fortunately a lot of people on this forum use the COLREGS in their daily life, ships masters, RYA instructors and other professional seamen. These guys are great contributors to CF in clarifying anything that might be hard to understand for others with less training and experience, so if that's you, please read their posts and disregard anything else that is outside the box..
You will also notice the ALL agree when it comes to COLREGS, including the point that there are
Stand on vessels
Give way vessels
No right of way vessels...