Keel bolts... is this the end?

[Snowpetrel]

Interesting discussion, and well done for spotting the issue now and considering it carefully.

The specs on the Oday 39 look pretty reasonable, and she looks like a nice boat, too nice to just walk away from... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2284

I've looked into the issue a fair bit, but I have no practical experience. There once was a guy in the US who used to travel and fix keel bolts, and he had some good info on the web, but I can't find it now. Prehaps it was this chap with a new website?
http://www.keelboltrepair.com

One of his suggestions (as I recall) was to drill out the new holes with a rented magnetic drill press. You lay in a steel U beam and attach it solidly to something level, such as the floor, then lock the magnetic drill press onto it to carefully drill the holes. There was a proper profile for the drill bit tip and a reccomended speed, pressure and lubrication type to stop it binding in the hole and potentially snapping the drill bit. Doing it by hand risked a snapped drill bit or a broken wrist if it bound up with the larger sizes.

I think he then dropped a strong magnet into the hole to find the bottom from the outside, and filled it partially with fluid so he could test drill from the outside and and when he had a flow of fluid coming out his test hole he would then enlarge the pocket with a drill and chisel.

After the holes and pockets are drilled replacement sounded pretty easy. Drop in a length of suitable threaded rod covered with epoxy. Bolt up inside the pocket and on top with big metal plate backing pads. Let it all dry, torque it up, then fill, fair and paint the pockets.

I'd use 2205 duplex stainless rod, washers and nuts, and get the ends threaded by a machine shop. Its the gold standard stainless wise, and far stronger and more corrosion resistant than 316.

What sort of structure does the keel attach to, ie is their room to sister the bolts, or do you have to place them in the same place as the old broken bolts. Or can extra structure be added around the sistered bolts?

Best of luck with it all and I am keen to hear how you go, as I'd like to sister more bolts into my keel one day for extra peace of mind in rough seas or incase of a hard grounding.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Motown

Heard rumors that the weight of the mast on the hull without the keel could be destructive

It’s a combination of things. If the mast is stepped atop a keel bolt, it’ll be in the way.

Also, without the keel, your boat will be sitting on spindly little legs with a 50’ stick above it. Not the most stable thing when a little squall rolls through.

[hamburking]

Things don't usually fail in isolation. The OP never said the rest of the boat is in great shape. Without further info, hard as it is to say, I would scrap the boat, sell it for parts. Perhaps some money can be recouped from the winches, engine, rig, and yes....the lead.

The OP also implies the boat is new to him...what did his pre-purchase survey have to say about the keel bolts?

Personally, I conside keel bolt failure somewhat an important milestone. I'm a fan of old sailboats. If keel bolts have become likely to be compromised, then the value of many old sailboats will abruptly drop to zero. And while encapsulated keels may be spared (for now), they have issues of their own...cracks, water ingress, corrosion of the ballast, weakening of the stub, etc.

So I ask the OP...whats the condition of the rest of the boat?

[ValiantV]

Sorry you're getting beat up here Motown. I think we newer sailors or first-time owners are bait for the folks looking to make themselves feel bigger by belittling others.

As to your actual issue, I'd be inclined to just face the fact that a serious deficiency slipped past the surveyor. It happens (all the time apparently.)

$700 per keel bolt plus haulout, etc may not be all that bad - so long as the guys doing the actual work are competent. Youay be able to shop around a bit, negotiate, combine with other work to make that a little less of a financial bite.

Probably not worth the extra time and money to do a patch job with lag bolts and the like. Hopefully, you have a couple of local boatyards to choose from AND the time to wait on the repair. Yes, you may need to fly home and come back later. Don't despair and list hope, just deal with the fact that there's bound to be SONETHING wrong with every older boat.

As to surveyors - yeah - yours screwed the pooch on this one if they missed the signs on the haul-out that you apparently caught later. Again, it happens.

Even if you do your homework and hire the best recomended surveyor in the area, something is gonna slip by him. My surveyor was great. Found a few issues that allowed me to negotiate a lower purchase price on my older boat. But, he was unable to predict that the A/C that worked fine during the sea trial would fail in a week (that's gonna cost me at least $2,500 if I do the work myself.) He also didn't magically conclude that those "stiff" engine controls would require replacement of both cables. ("Only" $200 in parts, but a bear of a DIY job.)

Anyway, you've already heard that "boats cost money", so now you have the practical example.

I'd say, relax, have a beer, rum, Scotch, whatever. Start calling local boatyards and find the best deal you can on a professional repair by an experienced, competent technician.

Your next boat is gonna need work too.

Sent from my XT1254 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Motown]

Thanks for the support ����
I really don't care about the flak I'm getting from some couch potato, I'm in the Bahamas... stressed for sure.. but still here doin it.

The pre purchase survey says nothing about the keel or bolts other than its composition- lead
The rest of the boat is great, not perfect, still an old boat but I've maintained and fixed and replaced as much as I know how and compiled a fairly large list of projects beginning with mission critical and ending with comfort. And I've been hammering that list while living on the boat until this current problem demanded all of my attention.

What I'm looking at is the "spare tire solution" .. lags, expansion anchors, epoxy and threaded rod.. for a couple hundred and a few days of work. Or the full Monty, haul out drop the keel and ship it to the foundry for them to truly repair it for no less than $10k.

Looked up the guys that will travel and do the bolts and that would be about 5k, similar to the price of being in Rhode Island just down the road from the foundry.

I've been sitting at anchorage for almost a week now, and I think the plan is to make the trip to marsh harbor when I get a weather window and go nice and slow. Haul her at the yard and head back to the states for hurricane season and make some cash so all options are open to me.

[Kudu]

You may be lucky. The corrosion might be crevice corrosion just as the bolt emerges at the surface, and may be sound below. Drill a pocket around the bolts and see how far the corrosion goes below the surface. You may find good solid bolt not too far down. If so, you can tap new thread, and with suitable spacers and spreaders you are back in business. Pocket would have to be sealed with mastic or the like.

[coastalexplorer]

Non ferrous foundries traditionally will give some credit for the metal when replacing a casting. It seems that it has already been established that they still have the pattern. So recasting the keel is the ultimate best solution.

It seems obvious that a huge part of the cost would be in shipping which is charged by size and weight.

Their only course of action is the cut the old keel weight up into smaller pieces. and melt it which would cause the old J bolts to float to the surface for recovery and recycle as scrap. Some loss of metal would occur in this process from oxidization and the cutting process. Because lead is highly toxic There are environmental restrictions to melting and casting it.
So lead foundries in most jurisdictions have to have special equipment to control pollution.

Does Marsh Harbour have facilities and skilled labour to remove the existing keel weight? I did not copy and paste the photo of the lag bolt kit as I was criticized for: because I did not consider it a valid option. besides I think it was intended for their smaller model vessels.

Frankly I do not have any serious suggestions for a temporary fix to get it back the the USA mainland. IF an attempt is to be made to gamble that trip? perhaps other cruisers could sail in company? and could some of the expanding fasteners used in Concrete work hedge the bets on taking that risk?

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by coastalexplorer

...I did not copy and paste the photo of the lag bolt kit as I was criticized for: because I did not consider it a valid option...

Oh good lord, no one's criticizing 'you' either...look at the time stamp; your post is 13:55, mine's 13:56. I must be super-typer/cut and paster...

[gonesail]

show stoppers for me when dealing with boats are: rotten keel bolts and teak decks. sorry to hear of your misfortune.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Kudu

...Drill a pocket around the bolts and see how far the corrosion goes below the surface. You may find good solid bolt not too far down. If so, you can tap new thread, and with suitable spacers and spreaders you are back in business. Pocket would have to be sealed with mastic or the like.

Interesting - never heard of this being done and I probably misunderstand what is proposed so maybe some clarification? In all probability the bolts are rotten only around the keel-to-hull join; are we proposing to re-thread those bolts below the level of the lead keel, and then what - attach some internally threaded stainless steel tubing around the existing bolt stumps? Then I guess the tubing needs external threading to snug down a very large nut? Where do the 'spacers and spreaders' come in?

I can see some problems with this idea (or at least with my misinterpretation of it), not least of which is the weakest point seems right where it needs the most strength, but maybe I completely misunderstood, as the basic idea is interesting. Way out of left field? Or has this been done before?

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Motown

...The pre purchase survey says nothing about the keel or bolts other than its composition- lead...

Does no one else find this shocking incompetence? I couldn't get insurance until my keelbolts were pulled and inspected because the surveyor said he had no evidence either way. Keelbolt and cored/laid deck issues are the two "show stoppers" - the two most expensive items to fix - how can a surveyor just ignore one of those two?

[CaptsWife]

Why not call R & B Boatyard in Spanish Wells and see if they have any experience with this? They've got a good reputation and you can ask them questions, listen to what they say, and then make a decision if you feel comfortable. I have no personal experience with them.

R & B Boatyard - Spanish Wells, Bahamas

There's also Brown's Boat Basin in Nassau. A bit farther, but you could motor there in a day. Same thing....call, talk to Robert, see what he thinks. We had our rudder repaired there and while it was NOT cheap, it was well done.

https://activecaptain.com/marinas/29..._Basin_Bahamas

[RaymondR]

Trepanning over the corroded bolt and re-threading it so that an extension sleeve can be used to allow a stud to be screwed in to extend the corroded bolt appears to me to be one of the better solutions suggested provided you could source the required tools.

[AKA-None]

If you can't source the tools and parts then you have them made.

[jimbunyard]

A bit more discussion, in general and, if Motown's still following, specific to his situation...

We really know very little about his boat; an O'Day 39 with 2 keelbolts broken off by corrosion midships.

The boat is available with a 'regular' keel or a centerboard version.

The ballast is around 6600 lbs. (it's likely the center board version is a bit more so let's round them both up to 7000)

He's currently somewhere in the Bahamas.

To jump right to the point, a single 3/4" grade 2 bolt has a tensile strength at least 5 times greater than the entire weight of the keel.

The important thing, and one of the reasons for so many bolts, is to spread the load of a very dynamic system over the the relatively weak skin securing the ballast to the hull.

The bond, or lack of it, can be a very significant factor; if the keel stub/ballast interface is 7 ft x 10 inches (840 sq in), the load on the 'glue' is 8.33 lbs/sq in. I leave it to anyone who's used 5200 to imagine how much force is required to separate two 1 inch squares properly bonded with it...

Lest I seem to be irresponsibly recommending that anyone glue their keel on with 5200, the bolts, the glass, and their condition are the most important parts of the structure; leverage and sheer forces encountered while sailing would rapidly break any bonding between hull and lead were it not for the mechanical strength provided by the clamping pressure of the nuts on the fiberglass of the keel stub.

The point is that the whole system has to be taken into consideration when attempting a repair, permanent or temporary.

The idea of modifying an existing corroded bolt seems far-fetched, not the least because of the reduction of the supporting glass around it required to affect the modification.

Any drilling of new holes through the fiberglass should be considered very carefully, the use of 1/2" lag bolts over larger sizes here makes sense; the bolt strength is sufficient, the risk is weakening the glass supporting it by honeycombing it with large holes. Thick, large area backing plates are what's needed here.

A side note regarding the type of keel.

If Motown has a centerboard, that could have caused the midship bolts to waste away if they were installed in the 'thin' area between the board and the outer surface of the keel. Normal working in that area could have allowed water in, eventually rusting the (possibly smaller diameter) keelbolts there.

If this is the case, and the broken bolts are in that position, probably the best solution is to leave everything alone until the ballast can be dropped and the situation can be addressed properly.

If the majority of the bolts on the ends of the ballast pass the percussion and torque test, it is very likely that the boat can be lightly or possibly even moderately sailed or powered to a suitable yard.