JABSCO joker valve, again!

[Greenhand]

When we moved aboard last fall, I replaced the joker valve and had to re-replace it after about ten days. The second time, I rebuilt the whole pump. Now it is five months later and looking like I have to replace the joker valve again. WHAT ARE WE DOING WRONG?? (besides having a JABSCO)

The routine:
-We don't put any paper in the toilet
-We pump out weekly, including flushing fresh water through the system and rinsing by filling the holding tank through the pump out.
-Once a month I put vinegar in the system, pumping it out one pump every 5-10 minutes (I just re-read some of Peggy Hall's comments and perhaps we should be doing this more often?)
-Every 2-4 weeks, I put oil in the system. Without the oil, it becomes so hard to pump that you can imagine the O ring rolling up and down, rather than sliding. I have been using leftover cutting board oil, which is a mineral oil with added vitamin E, so basically baby oil. From reading a Practical Sailor review, perhaps I should be using cooking oil, instead? They specified that the joker valve in their testing was more resistant to olive than corn oil.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by Greenhand

WHAT ARE WE DOING WRONG?? (besides having a JABSCO)

It could be that simple. I finally gave up on Jabsco and replaced with Raritan about 5 years ago. They still require joker valve replacement as well as seals, but they are better engineered products, IMHO. I have no regrets for making the switch.

Dave

[sailorboy1]

how do you pump after each use, maybe you just aren't getting a good enough flush, especially if your tank is higher that the head

[ranger58sb]

Hard to imagine. What exactly is the symptom of failure? Back-flow into the bowl? Or...?

Our previous Jabsco joker valve lasted about 7 seasons, mostly weekend use with a couple 2-week sessions each year.

Our system is electric and fresh water flush, though, so maybe enough different from yours that comparison doesn't work.

FWIW, I'd have though pump rebuilding and joker valve replacing would be about two separate problems?

Another: Is there something about your discharge that isn't joker friendly? Uphill all the way, no loop, etc., something like that?

-Chris

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Greenhand

When we moved aboard last fall, I replaced the joker valve and had to re-replace it after about ten days. The second time, I rebuilt the whole pump. Now it is five months later and looking like I have to replace the joker valve again. WHAT ARE WE DOING WRONG?? (besides having a JABSCO)

The routine:
-We don't put any paper in the toilet
-We pump out weekly, including flushing fresh water through the system and rinsing by filling the holding tank through the pump out.
-Once a month I put vinegar in the system, pumping it out one pump every 5-10 minutes (I just re-read some of Peggy Hall's comments and perhaps we should be doing this more often?)
-Every 2-4 weeks, I put oil in the system. Without the oil, it becomes so hard to pump that you can imagine the O ring rolling up and down, rather than sliding. I have been using leftover cutting board oil, which is a mineral oil with added vitamin E, so basically baby oil. From reading a Practical Sailor review, perhaps I should be using cooking oil, instead? They specified that the joker valve in their testing was more resistant to olive than corn oil.

Try vinegar once a week.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Greenhand]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Hard to imagine. What exactly is the symptom of failure? Back-flow into the bowl? Or...?

Our previous Jabsco joker valve lasted about 7 seasons, mostly weekend use with a couple 2-week sessions each year.

Our system is electric and fresh water flush, though, so maybe enough different from yours that comparison doesn't work.

FWIW, I'd have though pump rebuilding and joker valve replacing would be about two separate problems?

Another: Is there something about your discharge that isn't joker friendly? Uphill all the way, no loop, etc., something like that?

-Chris

According to Practical Sailor, JABSCO valves are the most resilient, even if people think the heads themselves are less than ideal. I certainly haven't seen anyone else needing to change them once a quarter!

Yes, the problem we are having is backflow. A couple of weeks before we started getting backflow, we heard air bubbling back in, though. It doesn't seem to happen all the time, but it is happening more and more frequently over the last week or so. The discharge hoses all seem in proper order, including the vented loop. I guess we could, and should, check them again.

As for the pump, well, I was desperate: I didn't want to be messing with the head every two weeks!!

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Greenhand

Yes, the problem we are having is backflow. A couple of weeks before we started getting backflow, we heard air bubbling back in, though. It doesn't seem to happen all the time, but it is happening more and more frequently over the last week or so. The discharge hoses all seem in proper order, including the vented loop. I guess we could, and should, check them again.

So your discharge route is out through the joker, immediately up and over a loop, then down into the holding tank?

-Chris

[azsailor12]

I'd guess that the oil is causing the rubber in the valve to deteriorate. Is the texture different from a new one, or mis-shapen?

[sailm8]

FWIW On another forum people swore that Raritan joker valves were made of better material than Jabsco. I have a Raritan head and no problems for the last 2 years.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Greenhand

Yes, the problem we are having is backflow.

Well that suggests that there is nothing wrong with the joker valve. The problem is that it is backflowing and probably not getting flushed enough so the pH in the line stays high and the valve scales.

The lines can hold a lot more than what one for think. We rarely use our forward head (like maybe 6 times/year) yet last year those are the hoses than went bad. That head has to pump up and when I calculated the volume of the hose it was over 1-gal. So that line would need more than that to flush.

If your system has to pump up you need to flush it much more, replace the valve frequently, of make more use of acid/vinegar (and vinegar is not the best choice).

[HopCar]

You shouldn't need to put salad dressing in a marine toilet. The cylinder should be greased about once a year with a silicone or Teflon grease that won't hurt rubber.
I don't think vinegar hurts anything but it really doesn't help much either. I wonder if it will remove the grease?

I think you have a problem elsewhere. Start at the tank vent and work your way back to the toilet. Look for partial blockages. A blocked vent will put back pressure on the joker valve causing it to fail early.

[zboss]

Make sure you are installing the joker valve correctly.

What else are you using to clean your head? We only use Raritan CP. We keep a spray bottle full of KO that is used to spray the bowl after every utilization.

The Raritan CP contains a lubricating agent so you do not need to oil in the head. Using some types of oil can cause unwanted build up and result in exactly what you do not want to happen. We treat the pump piston with synthetic grease periodically.

[svHyLyte]

We have an early version Jabsco head that just keeps going and going. One thing I learned early on was that the ring securing Joker Valves should not be over tightened which evidently seems to distort the valve in some manner. We do use a head-lube roughly once a month and do apply a little silicon grease to the pump shaft periodically. We also keep a squeeze bottle with a solution of "Salt-Away" and fresh water in each of the heads and, once the bowls have been thoroughly cleared after use, put a few squirts of the solution in the bowls and give the heads a few more pumps to get the mix into the lines. We've been following this routine for the last 12 years and have had good, trouble-free, performance.

FWIW...

[dlymn]

Check that the holding tank vent is not blocked. Check for scale buildup in the bottom of the bowl. Using vinegar will loosen this and it can break away in lumps that can get stuck in the valve. Pump at least 15 pumps after any type of usage. Use fresh water to flush if possible.

If the joker valve is smooth , not sticky and the edges of the valve touch each other when you hold it up to the light, then it's probably not the valve. My most common fault is calcium buildup on the inner faces of the valve lips. Scrape that away and check that the lips seal.
Make sure that users aren"t using the toilet as a waste bin

[Greenhand]

Step 1: I just used the muriatic acid. I was expecting bubbles and gunk, but not the black powder that floats so well I had to wipe it out of the bowl, even after a third attempt at washing it down with warm fresh water. <heebeejeebees>

Step 2: Check the siphon valve...perhaps it was my overactive imagination, but I swear I had to break the vacuum to get it out. And I had to squeeze more than remember to open up the lips. Also soaking in muriatic acid at this point. Surely the brown stuff I got on my hands was rust...

I believe that any further troubleshooting will require that I wait until tomorrow, when we can pump out.