Rebuild or Replacement of Old Engine?

[Abo]

Originally Posted by mcon12000

I just replaced a Perkins 4108 with a Beta 38.

While trying to keep the Perkins Parts for Engines and Transatlantic diesel are fantastic resources.

Real world cost for a swap will be multiples of times more expensive than a rebuild but parts are becoming difficult to source on the Perkins. For example the rebuilt injection pump alone will cost $900-$1500 I put one on six moths before I decided it was time to replace the Perkins.

Here’s the basic cost on my swap so you’re not mislead.

New Beta 38 with two control panels(one basic is include), Standard beta mounts with the wider spacing required for a Perkins bed, seatalk interface and a few other nickel and dime items like water heater take offs with valves.........

$17k

.........Removal of the old engine and dropping in the new one. I did all the work leaving the yard with nothing but the job of lifting .So I spent a few weeks (not everyday) rebuilding the engine beds to work with the new motor.



So $22,010 without outside labor but double check my math and I’m sure I’ve forgotten something substantial.

Thank you mcon, I am writing this from my hospital bed while I recover from the shock lol I really did not expect this type of cost, it makes my old 2.8 turbo diesels look a lot more valuable, I will definitely be hanging on to them for replacing other engines. And, you make me more determined than ever to learn as much as possible about these diesels so I can do all of the work on them myself and keep myself from going broke. lol



With your information in tow I will be looking at changing to electrical, not sure what that will run into. I will do a post and see what I can come up with from other people in this group who have gone from diesel to electric.


I really do appreciate your input mcon, we all need this type of input to keep us out of the clouds and our feet firmly planted on the ground.



Regards,


Abo

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Abo

That certainly sounds cheaper than $8K for something I am worried about. Good to hear from someone who has experience with a Perkins motor. This is a Perkins 57 horsepower@3000 RPM, Model 4.154M Diesel with low hours, but the low hours is questionable in my books, but if it is real then this engine is definitely worth trying to rebuild.

I would be interested in knowing if anyone knows of a normal, rather than marine diesel repair shop around the Tampa area so I can get any necessary machining done.


Abo

I had a 4107 in my last yacht....had to replace the big end bearings, the crank shaft was good, replaced the cylinder liners and pistons, had the head refurbished, new gaskets and put it all back together...get a workshop manual.
By doing it yourself you save a real lot of money, in addition there is no need to major realining engine bearers and so on.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by Abo

That certainly sounds cheaper than $8K for something I am worried about. Good to hear from someone who has experience with a Perkins motor. This is a Perkins 57 horsepower@3000 RPM, Model 4.154M Diesel with low hours, but the low hours is questionable in my books, but if it is real then this engine is definitely worth trying to rebuild.

I would be interested in knowing if anyone knows of a normal, rather than marine diesel repair shop around the Tampa area so I can get any necessary machining done.


Abo

That 4-154 was used by Mazda in the light truck range so perhaps you could get a usable or rebuildable engine from a truck dismantler and just transfer the marine version components to the automotive engine. Incidentally, the 4-154 is an excellent engine, better than the 4-108 in several important areas ..... but still kept that annoying crankshaft seal.

[BBill]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

You make some excellent points there Tillikum, by- pass lube oil filters are amazing, I’ve installed a few Gulfcoast and Luberfiner filters on larger marine engines but never seen one on a cruising yacht.
EGR is a form of insanity thats mostly restricted to the automotive industry but if it ever comes to the cruising marine engine I’d wager that Volvo will be at the forefront. I thought that the Frantz filter had vanished from the market, they were quite popular in Australia.

I've had two MD volvos and would wager the older volvo marine engines were at the forefront compared to yanmars but...My son in law is a certified volvo tech in the marine trade in south Florida. He tells me to stay away from the new electronic volvos because they are too sensitive to moisture. The engines are fine but the elec components aren't so happy in the marine environment.

[Abo]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

My experience on my previous boat, where I wanted a more powerful engine, was that I was so disappointed with the new engines on offer that I bought an industrial engine and marinized it myself.

Hi Raymond,
Thank you for your response. You have aroused my curiosity, you seem to be well informed in your knowledge of diesel motors and how they function and how to work on them to get the performance from them that you are seeking.

I am very interested in your marinizing skills and knowledge, would it be OK with you to educate me on how you did this? What type of engine did you put into your boat and how many horsepower, and how is it performing now? I am looking at an IZUZU diesel 2.8 litre with a turbo charger on it from a 4 x 4.
Regards,
Abo

[Abo]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

That 4-154 was used by Mazda in the light truck range so perhaps you could get a usable or rebuildable engine from a truck dismantler and just transfer the marine version components to the automotive engine. Incidentally, the 4-154 is an excellent engine, better than the 4-108 in several important areas ..... but still kept that annoying crankshaft seal.

Hi Skipperpete,


Thank you for your response and input, do you know what year it was that Mazda put the 4.154 into their light truck range? This sounds like it could be a very good place to start and to get spares, and a lot cheaper than looking for a "marine" engine, these seem to have prices chasing those of aircraft parts. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and your experience in knowing that the 4.154 was an excellent engine. Do you have any thoughts on whether or not the crankshaft seal can be replaced with a different one, or improved upon with a modification? I am more interested in avoiding problems in the long run than a quick fix to save a dollar or two short term.


Regards,
Abo

[Abo]

Originally Posted by BBill

I've had two MD volvos and would wager the older volvo marine engines were at the forefront compared to yanmars but...My son in law is a certified volvo tech in the marine trade in south Florida. He tells me to stay away from the new electronic volvos because they are too sensitive to moisture. The engines are fine but the elec components aren't so happy in the marine environment.

Hi BBill,


Thank you for this input, I had heard that the new Volvos and the new Yanmars are not as good as could be hoped for, but the specifics were not as clear as you have made it here. It is much better, and easier to believe, when someone like your son gives you the information to not go near the newer Volvos yourself because of moisture sensitivity. Really appreciate this information.


Regards,
Abo

[Abo]

Originally Posted by Icarus

I had a 4107 in my last yacht....had to replace the big end bearings, the crank shaft was good, replaced the cylinder liners and pistons, had the head refurbished, new gaskets and put it all back together...get a workshop manual.
By doing it yourself you save a real lot of money, in addition there is no need to major realining engine bearers and so on.

Hi Icarus,


Thank you for that information, much appreciated. I managed to get a workshop manual for the 4.154M, it appears to be the 'real deal' just over 200 pages, wish I could read, but there are lots of pictures so I should be OK Yes, I do agree with you, I would really like to keep this engine in the boat, it sounds like a much better proposition all round. Do you recall the range of spanner sizes and type (ring, open end, socket) that I would require, I need to lug them on a plane so I am trying to keep weight down. I have a tension wrench so that will be in. Do you have any idea of the size and clearances for a spanner to operate in to loosen and tighten the prop. shaft gland/seal? I am thinking of making something up at home before getting to the boat. I haven't checked but I have heard that there is a room issue between the nut and the fibreglass.



Regards,
Abo

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Abo

Hi Raymond,
Thank you for your response. You have aroused my curiosity, you seem to be well informed in your knowledge of diesel motors and how they function and how to work on them to get the performance from them that you are seeking.

I am very interested in your marinizing skills and knowledge, would it be OK with you to educate me on how you did this? What type of engine did you put into your boat and how many horsepower, and how is it performing now? I am looking at an IZUZU diesel 2.8 litre with a turbo charger on it from a 4 x 4.
Regards,
Abo

Hi Abo,

Sorry, I overlooked your post but about to be remedied.

The engine I chose was a Kuboto V2203, 4 cylinder, naturally aspirated and a Twin Disc marine gearbox.

My first attempt at marinization was to copy the commercial units with a heat exchanger incorporated into the water cooled exhaust manifold. I did not want it fabricated form aluminium alloy as these tend to corrosion so I fabricated the unit from stainless steel. However, having completed it I decided it was too heavy for the 8 ea 5/16" bolts holding it to the engine and abandoned it.

I then fabricated parts to isolate the water path from the alloy gear housing on the front of the engine and made a new water cooled exhaust manifold from readily available carbon and stainless steel hollow sections and removed the welsh plugs from the block and replaced them with threaded collars into which I installed zinc anodes. I also machined an adapter to install an impeller pump on the front of the engine and piped the cooling water system from cupro nickel tubing and fittings (don't like hoses)

I ran the engine with raw water for a couple of years then during a hull refit (steel boat) fitted on keel cooling tubes and converted the cooling system to fresh water.

I also fabricated a new bell housing from aluminium plate and spigots I machined and flat bar designing it to include two starter motors.

Other than the manifold modification the conversion and later modifications were all successful and are still operating in the vessel seven years later.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Hi Abo,



Sorry, I overlooked your post but about to be remedied.



The engine I chose was a Kuboto V2203, 4 cylinder, naturally aspirated and a Twin Disc marine gearbox.



My first attempt at marinization was to copy the commercial units with a heat exchanger incorporated into the water cooled exhaust manifold. I did not want it fabricated form aluminium alloy as these tend to corrosion so I fabricated the unit from stainless steel. However, having completed it I decided it was too heavy for the 8 ea 5/16" bolts holding it to the engine and abandoned it.



I then fabricated parts to isolate the water path from the alloy gear housing on the front of the engine and made a new water cooled exhaust manifold from readily available carbon and stainless steel hollow sections and removed the welsh plugs from the block and replaced them with threaded collars into which I installed zinc anodes. I also machined an adapter to install an impeller pump on the front of the engine and piped the cooling water system from cupro nickel tubing and fittings (don't like hoses)



I ran the engine with raw water for a couple of years then during a hull refit (steel boat) fitted on keel cooling tubes and converted the cooling system to fresh water.



I also fabricated a new bell housing from aluminium plate and spigots I machined and flat bar designing it to include two starter motors.



Other than the manifold modification the conversion and later modifications were all successful and are still operating in the vessel seven years later.

RaymondR- same Kubota block as my Beta 50. Great engine.
Probably Nanni also uses it.
Why did you do this all yourself? Assume you felt prices were too high and wondering how much you saved. Of course your labor and expertise were free [emoji3]

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by BBill

I've had two MD volvos and would wager the older volvo marine engines were at the forefront compared to yanmars but...My son in law is a certified volvo tech in the marine trade in south Florida. He tells me to stay away from the new electronic volvos because they are too sensitive to moisture. The engines are fine but the elec components aren't so happy in the marine environment.

The newer D1 and D2 engines from Volvo-Penta are not electronically controlled (e.g. the injection is not computer controlled), they are traditional diesels with a CANBUS instrument bus and electronically controlled Start/Stop/Glow. The black boxes (MDI) on the engines have been unreliable but that does not prevent the operation of the engine. Some with fleet experience have said that the source of many problems is the box with the start/stop buttons on it, which when mounted in the cockpit and exposed to water can fail and take the MDI with it. Since there is no obvious indicator of the switch failure the mechanics replace the failed MDI and have repeated MDI failures. Moving the switch box into a protected location, and moving the MDI off the engine to a nearby location, should help reliability greatly. Ultimately some users just replace the electronics with a traditional Caterpillar-style switch or buttons and relays, and an N2K converter for the instrument data. Of course the poor Volvo mechanic is obligated to just keep replacing the Volvo parts with Volvo parts . The underlying diesel engine is the excellent Shibauru, made in Japan. I'm not arguing that one should voluntarily get into this, just that it is not as bad as it is sometimes portrayed. If you can add a starter switch to the starter solenoid then the engine can work with failed electronics. And if you have such an engine and the MDI fails, don't have V-P just replace the failed part; save a lot of money and make a more reliable work-around. (There is at least one long thread on this issue.)

Greg

[Abo]

Originally Posted by lo2jones

You realize there are few or no replacement parts for the old engine. If something breaks in a remote location you could end up doing a Pardee: sailing to your next location with wind only. I just faced the question and am about 95% finished with replacing with new.

Good luck

Hi Lo2Jones,



A very good point regarding spares, although some others have said that they have no problems getting the parts for their engines. I wonder if the IZUZU engines would be easier to get parts for, they are about 1978 models, and fairly popular, although not a marine engine. These are still a four cylinder, but turbo charged and have a lot more horsepower so may be a lot better proposition, and seem fairly economical to run in a 4 wheel drive, but you would then have the connectivity issues to the original fittings.



Regards,
Abo

[Abo]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

The newer D1 and D2 engines from Volvo-Penta are not electronically controlled (e.g. the injection is not computer controlled), they are traditional diesels with a CANBUS instrument bus and electronically controlled Start/Stop/Glow. The black boxes (MDI) on the engines have been unreliable but that does not prevent the operation of the engine. Some with fleet experience have said that the source of many problems is the box with the start/stop buttons on it, which when mounted in the cockpit and exposed to water can fail and take the MDI with it. Since there is no obvious indicator of the switch failure the mechanics replace the failed MDI and have repeated MDI failures. Moving the switch box into a protected location, and moving the MDI off the engine to a nearby location, should help reliability greatly. Ultimately some users just replace the electronics with a traditional Caterpillar-style switch or buttons and relays, and an N2K converter for the instrument data. Of course the poor Volvo mechanic is obligated to just keep replacing the Volvo parts with Volvo parts . The underlying diesel engine is the excellent Shibauru, made in Japan. I'm not arguing that one should voluntarily get into this, just that it is not as bad as it is sometimes portrayed. If you can add a starter switch to the starter solenoid then the engine can work with failed electronics. And if you have such an engine and the MDI fails, don't have V-P just replace the failed part; save a lot of money and make a more reliable work-around. (There is at least one long thread on this issue.)

Greg

I am impressed by the amount of knowledge in this group, It is so nice to see others sharing their knowledge and abilities on the topics brought up here. Thank you to everyone that participates in doing this, it is so nice to have such a great family of people around us, and willing to share their knowledge.


Regards,


Abo

[Abo]

Hi Greg,



Thank you for sharing this with me, and the rest of the community, I just realised I hadn't thanked you for this. I may come back later and ask you for more help in this as you know quite a lot about the issues with these motors and associated bits and pieces on the engines. I like your ideas on changing positions of switches and adding bits and pieces to alleviate any other possible future problems that may raise their ugly heads.



Regards,
Abo

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by malbert73

RaymondR- same Kubota block as my Beta 50. Great engine.
Probably Nanni also uses it.
Why did you do this all yourself? Assume you felt prices were too high and wondering how much you saved. Of course your labor and expertise were free [emoji3]

I could have bought a similar already marinized used engine for about the same cost but did not like the design. Also I like to stay active during the non cruising cyclone season. Having 28 or so years of steel boat ownership experience I firmly believe that the eventual arrangement is the only way to go.