New injectors v rebuilding injectors

[SAIL23692]

Ihave the same genset and had the same problem. If it didn't fire with ether then you have a compression problem. It should be around 455 psi. Use a GOOD guage. Lots of Marvel Mystery oil can sometimes free the rings. I had pits in the head and a had valve seats made. Like new!!

[Pirateking]

Ok, I have not been drinking so the last suggestion, while it did make me laugh, is not good, my wife says my penchant for old boats is a sickness.

And yes, my info is sketchy because what I am getting from the mechanic is sketchy, and on my really old boat, I am still maintaining a Universal A-4. All this no spark stuff isn't natural you know.😎

The real question is do I let him play it out, or change mechanics at this point.

Acid test. He said the attached water pump needed to be replaced because the stains indicate bad bearing on the shaft. Yes no?




Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Pirateking

Ok, I have not been drinking so the last suggestion, while it did make me laugh, is not good, my wife says my penchant for old boats is a sickness.

And yes, my info is sketchy because what I am getting from the mechanic is sketchy, and on my really old boat, I am still maintaining a Universal A-4. All this no spark stuff isn't natural you know.��

The real question is do I let him play it out, or change mechanics at this point.

Acid test. He said the attached water pump needed to be replaced because the stains indicate bad bearing on the shaft. Yes no?

Attachment 111585



Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

If the mechanic actually said 'This water pump needs to be replaced', without at least telling you that it is typical to rebuild them first, I'd say let him go. All parts for pumps like that are generally available from a variety of sources (not necessarily Westerbeke) at substantial cost savings over a new pump. Chances are good that you need only to replace seals, but most people replace seals, bearings and impeller at the same time, since they're already in there anyway (the impeller is a regular wear item, and bearings and seals are cheap and available from the local bearing shop [Motion Industries or the like]).

Small diesel engines are actually simpler than gas engines (roughly a third less variables), as you get to know them they grow on you. Two answers would really help for troubleshooting, the actual model number of the gen set, and the background conditions, i.e. was the engine running fine and suddenly shut down, never to 'fire' again, or has it been getting steadily worse and worse. It seems unlikely that you'd lose compression on all three cylinders at the same time, with ether (used very sparingly, like putting on perfume) and proper rotation speed you should get some attempts to start. Make sure the generator end is not energized while trying to start.

Poor, unconscientious mechanics are a dime a dozen, you'll probably go through half a dozen to find a good one...

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

If the mechanic actually said 'This water pump needs to be replaced', without at least telling you that it is typical to rebuild them first, I'd say let him go. All parts for pumps like that are generally available from a variety of sources (not necessarily Westerbeke) at substantial cost savings over a new pump. Chances are good that you need only to replace seals, but most people replace seals, bearings and impeller at the same time, since they're already in there anyway (the impeller is a regular wear item, and bearings and seals are cheap and available from the local bearing shop [Motion Industries or the like]).

Small diesel engines are actually simpler than gas engines (roughly a third less variables), as you get to know them they grow on you. Two answers would really help for troubleshooting, the actual model number of the gen set, and the background conditions, i.e. was the engine running fine and suddenly shut down, never to 'fire' again, or has it been getting steadily worse and worse. It seems unlikely that you'd lose compression on all three cylinders at the same time, with ether (used very sparingly, like putting on perfume) and proper rotation speed you should get some attempts to start. Make sure the generator end is not energized while trying to start.

Poor, unconscientious mechanics are a dime a dozen, you'll probably go through half a dozen to find a good one...

Now wait just a minute.

It may be common for DIY owners (who don't value their time) to rebuild a water pump. Not so much for a hired mechanic. They can charge $50 parts and $300 labour to rebuild (and then have to warrant the rebuild themselves), or $350 for new pump, and the manufacturer is responsible for the warranty.

A good mechanic is very busy, and can't afford to dick around wasting time rebuilding something of unknown condition, just to find out the shaft is scored, pitted, or bent and the unit is toast anyway. (Most boaters would not be too interested to pay for the rebuild AND a new unit in such a case.)

Mechanics make money installing new equipment, not so much on rebuilding anything.

And don't blame them for trying to make money. They have to make money to stay in business, so they can help other boaters.

Ramblin' Rod
www.sheenmarine.com

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Now wait just a minute.

It may be common for DIY owners (who don't value their time) to rebuild a water pump. Not so much for a hired mechanic. They can charge $50 parts and $300 labour to rebuild (and then have to warrant the rebuild themselves), or $350 for new pump, and the manufacturer is responsible for the warranty.

A good mechanic is very busy, and can't afford to dick around wasting time rebuilding something of unknown condition, just to find out the shaft is scored, pitted, or bent and the unit is toast anyway. (Most boaters would not be too interested to pay for the rebuild AND a new unit in such a case.)

Mechanics make money installing new equipment, not so much on rebuilding anything.

And don't blame them for trying to make money. They have to make money to stay in business, so they can help other boaters.

Ramblin' Rod
www.sheenmarine.com

Not sure if you read the entire thread, but the OP asked specifically, twice that I remember, for opinions about if he should, or should not, retain his new mechanic, based on his description of the mechanics' performance so far.

Read through the entire thread, if you feel comfortable hiring the mechanic described, I'm sure Pirateking will be glad to put you in touch with him.

Leaving your silly personal comments aside, let's just talk about the important ones.

Good mechanics make money solving problems efficiently. What you seem to be describing and endorsing are colloquially known as parts changers.

Granted, there can be a fine line between when to change or rebuild a part; some of what makes a good mechanic a good mechanic for an inexperienced person is giving good advice.

As regards the OPs' water pump, a quick look online from Westerbeke suppliers (not Westerbeke themselves) shows it @ 445.00. We'll leave off removing and installing the pump, since that has to be done anyway, new or rebuilt.

Once the pump is off, a well equipped, efficient mechanic can tell if the pump is rebuildable in less than half an hour. I didn't look up part numbers for the bearings and seals but I' very sure that I could get both bearings and seals for less than 30.00. Impellers are all over the place so let's just say 40.00. Say an hour to rebuild the pump. So at 100.00 an hour labor and 70.00 for parts, 170.00. And this 'mechanic' doesn't mention a possible 275.00 savings, even as a not recommended option?

Unless there are other things we don't know about, the OPs' decision, from a cost/benefit standpoint, seems clear...

[model 10]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Leaving your silly personal comments aside, let's just talk about the important ones.

Good mechanics make money solving problems efficiently. What you seem to be describing and endorsing are colloquially known as parts changers.

Granted, there can be a fine line between when to change or rebuild a part; some of what makes a good mechanic a good mechanic for an inexperienced person is giving good advice.

As regards the OPs' water pump, a quick about, the OPs' decision, from a cost/benefit standpoint, seems clear...

I've been a pro mechanic and you are often a chump for overhauling some piece of junk part, like a water pump. Then, a year later it starts leaking and you have to do it over again. Sell the customer a new or rebuilt with a warranty. You get the labor for installation and the mark-up on the pump too , it's a no brainer from the mechanics standpoint. It's not being a parts changer it's just common sense. If you want to maybe waste time fixing an old pump do it yourself.

[DumnMad]

If there's a fault in your starter motor electrics it could be the starter turns the motor over too slow for it to fire.

[Pirateking]

He said it was a sign shaft was getting worn, would not fail immediately, but was in process of failing, never mentioned rebuilding. It complicates matters that the genset is mounted transversely under the helm with service side accessible from a panel in aft cabin but backside and both ends accessible only by a contortionist through the port and starboard cockpit lockers. Island packet did not build friendly access on this hull.

It is a Westerbeke 7.6 kW BTD 60hz (110), 5.7 kW BTD 50hz (220). We are running 110.

I think it impossible that all three cylinders are bad, but that goes not only to the injector letting compression out theory, but also to bad valve, bad piston, etc.

It has been running perfectly, although has always required glow plug, even in hot weather, and holding glow on for 5 sec or so after engine starts.

I ran it 3-4 weeks ago routinely, with load, for 20 Min. Shut down normal kill switch way. No problem or funny noise. 2 months ago, oil pressure sensor went out, would start w switch depressed, but die when released. Westerbeke tech support (I am really good at getting the headquarters tech support on the line) said replace the sensor, start w oil, I did, perfect since.

I have two crazy thoughts. (I) that the kill switch has locked in kill, even though mech has unplugged the wires, or (II) some one posted that the high temp sensor isn't bypassed by the start switch. That it will lock out the engine.

Better detail?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[undercutter]

Originally Posted by Pirateking

He said it was a sign shaft was getting worn, would not fail immediately, but was in process of failing, never mentioned rebuilding. It complicates matters that the genset is mounted transversely under the helm with service side accessible from a panel in aft cabin but backside and both ends accessible only by a contortionist through the port and starboard cockpit lockers. Island packet did not build friendly access on this hull.

It is a Westerbeke 7.6 kW BTD 60hz (110), 5.7 kW BTD 50hz (220). We are running 110.

I think it impossible that all three cylinders are bad, but that goes not only to the injector letting compression out theory, but also to bad valve, bad piston, etc.

It has been running perfectly, although has always required glow plug, even in hot weather, and holding glow on for 5 sec or so after engine starts.

I ran it 3-4 weeks ago routinely, with load, for 20 Min. Shut down normal kill switch way. No problem or funny noise. 2 months ago, oil pressure sensor went out, would start w switch depressed, but die when released. Westerbeke tech support (I am really good at getting the headquarters tech support on the line) said replace the sensor, start w oil, I did, perfect since.

I have two crazy thoughts. (I) that the kill switch has locked in kill, even though mech has unplugged the wires, or (II) some one posted that the high temp sensor isn't bypassed by the start switch. That it will lock out the engine.

Better detail?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Please remember that all the shutdown sensors control the fuel supply. What we are trying to tell you is that with ether the engine should at least fire even if there is no fuel being delivered to the combustion chamber through the injectors. It would not stay running but it would at least fire!!!

When was the last time you changed the air filtre?

Suggest that you remove the air filtre and then spray the ether into the intake manifold but only start spraying after the engine is turning over. Do not stop spraying until the engine fires but not for more than 10 seconds. If the engine is rotating fast enough with the starter, the engine will fire unless there are serious problems internally. It may stop again if there are other problems but it should at least fire.

The fact that you have had to use the glow plugs to get the engine to start is a sure sign of problems. This could be many things which may be tricky to diagnose but which should start with a compression test.

Yes definitely find another mechanic!!! That water pump is easily repaired for a few bucks and a little time. You should always carry a spare or at least parts on board at all times.

apologies for the previous suggestion. no excuses. not normally like that.

Good luck

[Mikado]

Originally Posted by undercutter

Please remember that all the shutdown sensors control the fuel supply. What we are trying to tell you is that with ether the engine should at least fire even if there is no fuel being delivered to the combustion chamber through the injectors. It would not stay running but it would at least fire!!!

When was the last time you changed the air filtre?

Suggest that you remove the air filtre and then spray the ether into the intake manifold but only start spraying after the engine is turning over. Do not stop spraying until the engine fires but not for more than 10 seconds. If the engine is rotating fast enough with the starter, the engine will fire unless there are serious problems internally. It may stop again if there are other problems but it should at least fire.

The fact that you have had to use the glow plugs to get the engine to start is a sure sign of problems. This could be many things which may be tricky to diagnose but which should start with a compression test.

Yes definitely find another mechanic!!! That water pump is easily repaired for a few bucks and a little time. You should always carry a spare or at least parts on board at all times.

apologies for the previous suggestion. no excuses. not normally like that.

Good luck

I get the feeling that the OP and undercutter are talking two different pumps, raw water and the closed system coolant water pump.

[Pirateking]

2nd response. There have been several Starter Motor comments. I do think the starter motor is turning slightly slower. But maybe I have never had to listen to it before. Would slightly slower starter keep ether from firing. It isn't dead slow, but maybe a little slower.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[yachtcowboy]

This GENSET has a glow plug to heat the cylinders. Right? I had this GENSET on a Bayliner 38 and if you didn't hold the glow plug switch for 30 seconds the GENSET would not start, no matter the fuel. I NEVER use ether on my diesels, a mechanic told me it is like giving a person a hit of crack cocaine, the engine is never the same after ether, always wants more ether to start.

[Pirateking]

3rd response. Manual attached. I was wrong, preheat only bypasses oil pressure sensor, not temp sensors. And if the stop switch didn't retract, that could be it also. Thank you.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[jimbunyard]

Much better.

In case you don't have a service manual, there's one here;

http://www.westerbeke.com/technical%...cal_manual.pdf

I think there is a problem with the shutdown system, or again starter speed.

The fuel solenoid must be energized for the engine to run, any sensor that is faulty can cause the solenoid to not be energized, preventing the engine from running.

The funny thing is that the engine won't run with ether, which is why I brought up engine starting speed. Your statement that engine requires glow plugs even in the hot Dallas summer tends to support this.

I would check that the fuel solenoid is getting power in the run position and is operating correctly. If it is not getting power, work backwards with a voltmeter from there until you find the fault.

I would probably also (though it sounds like a royal pita in your case) pull the starter and clean the mounting flange. The starter grounds through its' mounting on the engine, as time goes by, in this environment, corrosion builds up and gradually starter speed decreases unnoticeably. I'd also remove, clean and grease or oxguard all the battery cable connections. (You might get by by just loosening and and re-tightening the starter bolts to establish a better ground, if that helps, pulling and cleaning the starter mounting is indicated...)

[jimbunyard]

Would also check that the fuel solenoid is adjusted correctly, it appears that, as shown in the service manual on page 37, that there is quite a range...