New Engine - Same 4.107 over heating problem.

[jimbunyard]

Sorry for the clumsy wording, the 'air' is, of course, not boiling. The interface of the freshwater at the hotspot the trapped air is creating is where the boiling would take place...

[Cheechako]

That heat exchanger appears to be the one that was on my 1985 4-108. I never had any overheating issues with it, pushing a moderately heavy 44 ft boat, often in PNW tidal currents. So something has to be amiss. Someone above mentioned the holes /cutouts in the heat exchanger bundle being aligned. I wa never aware that was needed. I thought about suggesting you just add a small additional heat exchanger, but from everything I see, you need to find your actual problem.

[jimbunyard]

Joe,

If the tube bundle pictured below is the one you have, and it is not oriented with the large hole up as shown in the picture, it is possible for the orientation of the tube bundle to cause overheating, regardless of what someone above 'is aware of'. For instance, if the tube bundle were installed so the red and white dot were facing down, and there is not a bleeder hole located 180 degrees opposite from it (the red/white dot) then essentially there would be an air bubble filling half the tube bundle which would, of course, cut your cooling capacity by half (and likely a lot more). For clarity's sake, imagine the plane represented by the black rectangle rotated clockwise (viewed from the left end) 95 degrees, so the two large holes are facing down...all the volume above the plane represented by the rectangle would be air pocket.

This is the only picture I could find of the bundle, so if there are large holes all around each end, then you'll have to look further. But if there are only the two large holes in each end, and especially if there is no bleed hole opposite the red dot as shown in the picture, orientation of the bundle in the casting is likely crucial. If the two large holes weren't meant to direct flow in some way, the manufacturer wouldn't have enclosed the bundle in a bronze tube...

At any rate, if you loosen four hose clamps, remove one boot and have to turn the bundle 90 degrees, what have you lost? And I'm guessing you'll be a happy camper if it solves your problem. Let us know what happens and we'll throw some more cockamamie ideas at it if we have to...

[joesail]

Awe man. I just stuck the tube in not knowing there was an orientation. I will check this weekend. Thank you.

[Capt Gill]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Joe,

If the tube bundle pictured below is the one you have, and it is not oriented with the large hole up as shown in the picture, it is possible for the orientation of the tube bundle to cause overheating, regardless of what someone above 'is aware of'. For instance, if the tube bundle were installed so the red and white dot were facing down, and there is not a bleeder hole located 180 degrees opposite from it (the red/white dot) then essentially there would be an air bubble filling half the tube bundle which would, of course, cut your cooling capacity by half (and likely a lot more). For clarity's sake, imagine the plane represented by the black rectangle rotated clockwise (viewed from the left end) 95 degrees, so the two large holes are facing down...all the volume above the plane represented by the rectangle would be air pocket.

This is the only picture I could find of the bundle, so if there are large holes all around each end, then you'll have to look further. But if there are only the two large holes in each end, and especially if there is no bleed hole opposite the red dot as shown in the picture, orientation of the bundle in the casting is likely crucial. If the two large holes weren't meant to direct flow in some way, the manufacturer wouldn't have enclosed the bundle in a bronze tube...

At any rate, if you loosen four hose clamps, remove one boot and have to turn the bundle 90 degrees, what have you lost? And I'm guessing you'll be a happy camper if it solves your problem. Let us know what happens and we'll throw some more cockamamie ideas at it if we have to...

Please clarify:"so the red and white dot were facing down, and there is not a bleeder hole located 180 degrees opposite from it (the red/white dot) then essentially there would be an air bubble filling half the tube bundle which would, of course, cut your cooling capacity by half (and likely a lot more)." It would be helpful to know the source of this info, on the Bowman site there is nothing regarding what you state, in fact the picture you provide is exactly what is shown in Bowman's site except for the dot,it also has four holes at each end not two. The air bubble you mention is also baffling,if you're saying it's inside the tubes,which would be seawater,there's no way for that to happen unless the sw pump is sucking air and if you're saying the the fw surrounding the individual tubes in the bundle has an bubble that doesn't seem possible as the bundle is bathed in fw (coolant) and there's hardly any circulation there until the thermostat opens. This attachment is from Bowman:

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Capt Gill

Please clarify:"so the red and white dot were facing down, and there is not a bleeder hole located 180 degrees opposite from it (the red/white dot) then essentially there would be an air bubble filling half the tube bundle which would, of course, cut your cooling capacity by half (and likely a lot more)." It would be helpful to know the source of this info, on the Bowman site there is nothing regarding what you state, in fact the picture you provide is exactly what is shown in Bowman's site except for the dot,it also has four holes at each end not two. The air bubble you mention is also baffling,if you're saying it's inside the tubes,which would be seawater,there's no way for that to happen unless the sw pump is sucking air and if you're saying the the fw surrounding the individual tubes in the bundle has an bubble that doesn't seem possible as the bundle is bathed in fw (coolant) and there's hardly any circulation there until the thermostat opens. This attachment is from Bowman:

Nowhere in the attachment you provide from Bowman does it say 'the heat exchanger must be assembled correctly to work as designed', possibly because that is self evident.

The statements yellowed in your excerpt (couldn't copy and paste them here, thanks google or windows or whoever), make the same point I am making above, the system must be clear of air to work correctly.

Since I couldn't find 360 degree pictures of the bowman H/E bundle, I append two pictures of a Volvo or Perkins MD2020 or Perama H/E below, which is identical in design and function.

Note the 2 large holes in what is the bottom of the bundle (partially obscured by the boots for a pressure test). These align with, both in size and position, 2 upward facing holes in the HE/manifold. In the second picture, note the tiny bleeder hole in the upper part of the bundle.

It should be obvious that misalignment of the bundle is likely to result in a loss of efficiency of the flow of heat through the system, which will, depending on the degree of inefficiency, cause commensurately severe heating problems...


As to Joe's situation, is this the problem, who knows?, but a 90 degree twist of the HE bundle is a hell of a lot simpler than pulling the head...

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Capt Gill

Please clarify:"so the red and white dot were facing down, and there is not a bleeder hole located 180 degrees opposite from it (the red/white dot) then essentially there would be an air bubble filling half the tube bundle which would, of course, cut your cooling capacity by half (and likely a lot more)." It would be helpful to know the source of this info, on the Bowman site there is nothing regarding what you state, in fact the picture you provide is exactly what is shown in Bowman's site except for the dot,it also has four holes at each end not two. The air bubble you mention is also baffling,if you're saying it's inside the tubes,which would be seawater,there's no way for that to happen unless the sw pump is sucking air and if you're saying the the fw surrounding the individual tubes in the bundle has an bubble that doesn't seem possible as the bundle is bathed in fw (coolant) and there's hardly any circulation there until the thermostat opens. This attachment is from Bowman:

The freshwater goes through the big holes. The seawater goes through the small tubes in the bundle. The air pocket would be in the freshwater side of the HE bundle (possibly) trapped by gravity by misalignment, especially likely (in fact inevitable) if there is no bleed hole in the opposite side and the two large holes are facing down (and there are no large holes on the opposite side also). No amount of flow, large or small, through the FW side will remove the air bubble; that is the meaning of 'trapped'.

Some things are difficult for some people to understand sometimes, I've done my best trying to explain them both verbally and visually. If you still don't understand, I would suggest getting some hands on experience with this type HE.

[roberttigar]

zhyachts...you refer to a threaded pipe and half nipple in the exhaust manifold...Where is this located? Bob

[joesail]

Thanks guys. I'm hoping to go to the boat next weekend to check the positioning of the tube stack. Jim has a good point in that I have nothing to lose by checking this before I pull the head.

[Capt Gill]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

The freshwater goes through the big holes. The seawater goes through the small tubes in the bundle. The air pocket would be in the freshwater side of the HE bundle (possibly) trapped by gravity by misalignment, especially likely (in fact inevitable) if there is no bleed hole in the opposite side and the two large holes are facing down (and there are no large holes on the opposite side also). No amount of flow, large or small, through the FW side will remove the air bubble; that is the meaning of 'trapped'.

Some things are difficult for some people to understand sometimes, I've done my best trying to explain them both verbally and visually. If you still don't understand, I would suggest getting some hands on experience with this type HE.

I see the problem/misunderstanding we're having re. the HE & bundle,i.e., what you're describing and what I and the OP have, which is a Perkins 4-107/8.
" Since I couldn't find 360 degree pictures of the bowman H/E bundle, I append two pictures of a Volvo or Perkins MD2020 or Perama H/E below, which is identical in design and function.".
However, it's not"identical",but similar which is why we differ. I think you'll agree that for the type PE180-3483 HE(last pict.) it would make little difference as to the vertical orientation of the bundle,now if the OP has the one which you're describing the story changes. BTW,I have my HE apart dealing with another enigma

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Capt Gill

...However, it's not"identical",but similar which is why we differ. I think you'll agree that for the type PE180-3483 HE(last pict.) it would make little difference as to the vertical orientation of the bundle,now if the OP has the one which you're describing the story changes. BTW,I have my HE apart dealing with another enigma
Attachment 150567 Attachment 150568

The bundle is identical in design and function. it is not identical in dimensions.

If there is no bleed hole in the what-I'm-calling upper side of the bundle, and it is turned so the two large holes in each end are facing down, once again, it is inevitable that a pocket that will trap air will be formed in the space above the plane defined by the outermost perimeter of the large holes and the opposing upward facing side of the bundle tube.


Is there a bleed hole in the side opposite the four large holes?

Though I blew this picture up 400%



I couldn't see one...

Maybe yet another illustration will help...

[Capt Gill]

[QUOTE=jimbunyard;2420336]The bundle is identical in design and function. it is not identical in dimensions.

If there is no bleed hole in the what-I'm-calling upper side of the bundle, and it is turned so the two large holes in each end are facing down, once again, it is inevitable that a pocket that will trap air will be formed in the space above the plane defined by the outermost perimeter of the large holes and the opposing upward facing side of the bundle tube.


Is there a bleed hole in the side opposite the four large holes?

Bear with me,we'll get through yet. My main point is that the bundle you're describing and the one I have and is the one Bowman shows for the Perkins 4-107/8 are of different design,i.e., yours,as you state and your photo indicates, has two large holes,one at each end on the same plane and a small bleed hole about centre 180* from the large holes,whereas mine,which is the standard bundle for the Bowman PE180-3483 HE,has 4 equally spaced holes at EACH end and NO bleed hole as it would not be necessary. These are not the same design bundles and you did mention that you're referencing the Perkins MD2020 which uses a different bundle.
"Is there a bleed hole in the side opposite the four large holes?"
I don't know,that's a photo from Bowman I pulled up for the Perkins M series
you mentioned - only two holes though.
Over to you ;>}

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Capt Gill

I see the problem/misunderstanding we're having re. the HE & bundle,i.e., what you're describing and what I and the OP have, which is a Perkins 4-107/8...

Attachment 150567 Attachment 150568

Originally Posted by Capt Gill

...whereas mine,which is the standard bundle for the Bowman PE180-3483 HE,has 4 equally spaced holes at EACH end and NO bleed hole as it would not be necessary. These are not the same design bundles and you did mention that you're referencing the Perkins MD2020 which uses a different bundle.
"Is there a bleed hole in the side opposite the four large holes?"
I don't know,that's a photo from Bowman I pulled up for the Perkins M series
you mentioned - only two holes though.
Over to you ;>}

So what you're saying is that the tube bundle you have is not like the one illustrated in these two pictures






and has four holes on each end, for a total of 8 holes for the circulation of fresh water?


If this is the case then certainly there is no chance for an air pocket to form within the freshwater-side bronze tube.

But if your and Joe's tube are as illustrated in the above two pictures, then the situation for forming an air pocket remains the same, as I've previously described.



An experiment, if your tube bundle is as illustrated above.

Mark an 'x' on the tube equidistant from the four holes as shown in the first illustration above.

Turn the bundle over and mark an 'o' on other side, 180 degrees from the 'x' on the 'bottom' side.

Now go to some water deep enough to submerge the tube bundle completely, and holding the tube horizontally (so the long dimension is parallel to the horizon), with the 'x' facing down (towards the center of the earth), submerge the bundle completely.

Then, rotate the tube, holding it submerged, so the 'o' is facing down.

What happens?

[Lepke]

One thought... My 4108 would get an air lock when filling because of the thermostat. It happens in a lot of engines. If the coolant isn't completely filled, the thermostat has an air volume below, leaving the cylinder tops/head w/o coolant and keeping the thermostat from getting enough heat to open until the engine is really hot. After opening, the super hot coolant hits the upper part of the waterjackets/head and turns to steam appearing to be a boil over.
The solution is to drill a small hole 1/16" or so thru the thermostat plate so air can escape to the tank and be purged.

[Capt Gill]

[QUOTE=jimbunyard;2420488]So what you're saying is that the tube bundle you have is not like the one illustrated in these two pictures






and has four holes on each end, for a total of 8 holes for the circulation of fresh water?


If this is the case then certainly there is no chance for an air pocket to form within the freshwater-side bronze tube.

But if your and Joe's tube are as illustrated in the above two pictures, then the situation for forming an air pocket remains the same, as I've previously described.


"So what you're saying is that the tube bundle you have is not like the one illustrated in these two pictures" No, the two photos are to show the difference between what's used on the 4-108/7 (Top) and the one for the M series Perkins (Bottom),since the photo is not 3 dimensional,only 2,you can't see the other 2 holes opposite the holes shown. I can try to take a photo of mine,maybe with a mirror,to show a 360* view or you can call Bowman to verify.
"... and has four holes on each end, for a total of 8 holes for the circulation of fresh water?
If this is the case then certainly there is no chance for an air pocket to form within the freshwater-side bronze tube" That is the case.
Not having the bundle in the bottom photo I can only visualize what would happen if I did your experiment,i.e., upon turning it over the trapped air would be displaced by water causing air bubbles to rise to the surface.