How much Marine antifreeze to winterizing engine?

[letoile]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Pink antifreeze is bad stuff. Yes, you can drink it. But from an environmental standpoint, green and pink are almost identical -- although the pink is slightly worse (a higher COD). EPA has a "reportable spill quantity of either at just around 50 gallons (compare that to 1 drop of diesel oil). The difference shows up at acute levels -- drinking pure or dilute EG. When massively diluted (1 gallon in the water around your boat), there is no impact on life, and only an oxygen demand as it decays (the COD).



Practical Sailor has run tests on the damage done by pink to rubber, seals, valves, etc, and it is bad. It is the primary culprit behind early failure of water impellers, head joker valves, plastic strainer bowels, etc. One winter can ruin many of these parts.



So, unless you are worried about the boatyard dog when you winterize on land (a valid concern!), then use green.

Sailingharry, thanks for the great info and links links on the dangers of pink AF. I was pretty sure it was distorting my joker valve yearly and.now I know why. Thanks again.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Redline452

... using plumbing grade / non-toxic is to avoid pollution when restarting in the spring - if "tractor antifreeze" is the stuff you'd put in radiators, it's not kind to sea life when dumped overboard.

Not true. This is a common misunderstanding. Just like chocolate is bad for dogs but not people, sea life cannot determine a difference between EG and PG. Don't believe me, look at the SDS and compare the LC/50s.


Sail Delmarva: EG vs PG: Conventional Wisdom That is Provably Wrong



PG MSDS
Ecotoxicity in water (LC50): >5000 mg/l 24 hours [Goldfish]. >10000 mg/l 48 hours [guppy]. >10000 mg/l 48 hours [water flea].
EG MSDS
Ecotoxicity in water (LC50): 41000 mg/l 96 hours [Fish (Trout)]. 46300 mg/l 48 hours [water flea]. 34250 mg/l 96 hours [Fish (bluegill fish)]. 34250 mg/l 72 hours [Fish (Goldfish)].


From Risk World (European conference)
"Based upon the limited available data, no general distinction can be made between aquatic toxicities of ethylene and propylene glycol formulations."



Both are pollutants, but only in the sense of adding COD.

[thinwater]

The main thing with AF is to recycle if you can. Like aluminum, this is a material that is efficient to re-use.

[Kd9truck]

Originally Posted by Redline452

Yanmar 4JH2TE, "fresh water cooled" (i.e. closed Prestone-filled system with heat exchanger). Two gallons of pink non-toxic antifreeze* into the raw water strainer with the through-hull closed when we're in the slings just prior to haulout (exahust is pink after the first gallon, second is cheap insurance) and we're done. This is in Montreal, so hard freezes are guaranteed.


If your engine is "raw water" or "sea water" cooled, then you need to get it up to temp so the thermostat opens, and will need a lot more antifreeze. Unlikely on a 4-cyl, but do check.



* using plumbing grade / non-toxic is to avoid pollution when restarting in the spring - if "tractor antifreeze" is the stuff you'd put in radiators, it's not kind to sea life when dumped overboard.

I am with Redline start to Finnish

And don’t forget to address your water heater and check the anti freeze.

[01kiwijohn]

In Alaska, I use the potable RV stuff, in consideration for the environment. I have a 3GM30F which runs regular long life auto antifreeze in the closed system.
For the raw water I drain the sea water out of the heat exchanger and pump housings, then run a couple of gallons thru it, which is more than enough for that motor. After shut down, drain the muffler.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by 01kiwijohn

In Alaska, I use the potable RV stuff, in consideration for the environment. I have a 3GM30F which runs regular long life auto antifreeze in the closed system.
For the raw water I drain the sea water out of the heat exchanger and pump housings, then run a couple of gallons thru it, which is more than enough for that motor. After shut down, drain the muffler.

What about the potable stuff makes it "In consideration of the environment?" As ThinWater clearly showed up-thread (by reference to scientific papers), a person truly concerned about the environment would use green (or at the very least, knows it doesn't make a difference).


The challenge is it "makes sense" that the pink is good. It isn't. Just myth, rumor, suspicion.


But it's your seals, impellers, strainers. If it makes you feel good, well, it truly doesn't matter if you use pink.

[pcmm]

4 cylinder yanmar (4jh series) will have water cooling of the tranmission, making it the lowest point in the raw water system. Pre draining the system gives you a better chance of not diluting the AF.

I winterize mine using the following

1. drain the raw water side with the trans cooler drain.
2. drain the waterlock muffler ( there is usually a drain for this)
3. fill at 5 gallon bucket with 3.5 gallons of 100f non-toxic antifreeze ( the dark green stuff - its gets really cold here on Lake Ontario)
4. remove the raw water intake from the strainer and place it in the bucker (without knocking over the bucket!)
5. start and idle engine until about a 1/2 gallon spits out the exhaust into a collector bucket.
6. shut it down and clean up

With that I'm usually left with 1/2 gallon or so in the intake bucket.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

What about the potable stuff makes it "In consideration of the environment?" As ThinWater clearly showed up-thread (by reference to scientific papers), a person truly concerned about the environment would use green (or at the very least, knows it doesn't make a difference).


The challenge is it "makes sense" that the pink is good. It isn't. Just myth, rumor, suspicion.


But it's your seals, impellers, strainers. If it makes you feel good, well, it truly doesn't matter if you use pink.

the Pink and Green stuff are both PG.. The main difference is the temp rating.

and Thinwater's links to scientific papers don't go anywhere! (both result in 404's)

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by pcmm

the Pink and Green stuff are both PG.. The main difference is the temp rating.

and Thinwater's links to scientific papers don't go anywhere! (both result in 404's)

By "green" I would generally think of ethylene glycol engine antifreeze (which isn't all green, but used to be). I always think of the -100 propylene glycol stuff as blue, even though it's really a blue-green color.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

By "green" I would generally think of ethylene glycol engine antifreeze (which isn't all green, but used to be). I always think of the -100 propylene glycol stuff as blue, even though it's really a blue-green color.

Why would someone use the bright green EG stuff to winterize an engine? Whats the benefit unless you want to spend MORE winterizing??? and add risk to the surrounding ground/pets etc??

Where I am a bottle of "regular" EG green stuff (for cars) costs between $22-25 per gallon and the -100F PG stuff costs $15.

Cheaper (for once) to do it the right way! and I don't buy the argument with the it eats at valve seals, impellors. etc. 1. There are no valve seals in the raw water system. 2. the impeller gets replaced annually anyway so if it did cause issues its with the impeller that's getting replaced in the spring anyway!

dumping antifreeze on the ground is considered "illegal waste dumping" and subject to potential fines in Ontario. Our club has a big tank for Oil and another for AF recycling. Not too hard to do things the right way!

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by Redline452

Yanmar 4JH2TE, "fresh water cooled" (i.e. closed Prestone-filled system with heat exchanger). Two gallons of pink non-toxic antifreeze* into the raw water strainer with the through-hull closed when we're in the slings just prior to haulout (exahust is pink after the first gallon, second is cheap insurance) and we're done. This is in Montreal, so hard freezes are guaranteed.


If your engine is "raw water" or "sea water" cooled, then you need to get it up to temp so the thermostat opens, and will need a lot more antifreeze. Unlikely on a 4-cyl, but do check.



* using plumbing grade / non-toxic is to avoid pollution when restarting in the spring - if "tractor antifreeze" is the stuff you'd put in radiators, it's not kind to sea life when dumped overboard.

On my old raw water cooled engine, I removed the thermostat and put the cover back on without it. Guaranteed to be open that way. Then put it back in when done. That was a 13hp Yanmar, took about 2 gallons as I recall, usually used the purple -100 stuff from West Marine. Had that boat 15 years in Michigan stored outside.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by pcmm

the Pink and Green stuff are both PG.. The main difference is the temp rating.

and Thinwater's links to scientific papers don't go anywhere! (both result in 404's)

Yes, that's the problem with using color to describe it.


"green" is typically automotive, and EG or Ethylene Glycol. But EG can also be red and orange, and maybe more.


"pink" is typically RV, and can be PG (Propylene Glycol) but is also frequently alcohol based, and can also be dark blue or dark green, to indicate temp rates.


I will admit I didn't follow Thin's links because he has historically been impeccably acculturate. It's curious that a targeted google search gives the exact same dead link, so it must be recent failure. No matter, a general search for "msds ethylene glycol" (and PG) yields the same data:


PG: https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/19870.htm


EG: https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/09400.htm

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by pcmm

Why would someone use the bright green EG stuff to winterize an engine? Whats the benefit unless you want to spend MORE winterizing??? and add risk to the surrounding ground/pets etc??

Where I am a bottle of "regular" EG green stuff (for cars) costs between $22-25 per gallon and the -100F PG stuff costs $15.

Cheaper (for once) to do it the right way! and I don't buy the argument with the it eats at valve seals, impellors. etc. 1. There are no valve seals in the raw water system. 2. the impeller gets replaced annually anyway so if it did cause issues its with the impeller that's getting replaced in the spring anyway!

dumping antifreeze on the ground is considered "illegal waste dumping" and subject to potential fines in Ontario. Our club has a big tank for Oil and another for AF recycling. Not too hard to do things the right way!

Here in the US, the economics are different.
EG -- $8/gal -- https://www.autozone.com/antifreeze-...lon/547034_0_0
PG -- $16/gal -- https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-...98?recordNum=3



You may not have any parts impacted. I don't change my impeller annually (if you use EG, it's not necessary). On my last boat, the strainer bowl was plastic, and badly damaged by PG. But you should read the studies on what PG does to the joker valve on your head!



I suspect that Ontario pollution rules don't differentiate between EG and PG.


I agree, if there isn't any difference, why not do it the "right way" -- which is EG.

[altinr]

Every system is different, but she’ll probably be OK with about 4 gallons. Let it run until you see pink coming out of the exhaust. The reason you don’t want to use Ethlene glycol standard antifreeze Is that it is toxic to wildlife!

[Dave9111]

You guys need to get out more!

Proplylene Glycol/ethanol - The Pink RV antifreeze is as low as $2.50/gallon at Menards, Walmart, etc.
Watch and make sure that you avoid the RV antifreeze that contains alcohol. The price is about the same for both. I've seen the -100 degree stuff for about $6/gallon. I use the -50 stuff which has worked fine in Michigan and it has gotten down to -15 F or so there over the last several years.

Ethylene Glycol - Engine coolant - The best price I have seen for prediluted 50:50 auto antifreeze is $7.90/gallon. Full strength is usually $12-14/gallon.

I used Propylene Glycol RV antifreeze with Alcohol last winter by mistake and it didn't do any visible harm to any rubber, but I would avoid it. Alcohol is rough on rubber in general.

BTW, Propylene Glycol is used in food, seriously.... you read the labels right? So if you get thirsty while winterizing, resist the urge! :-)

Dave