The Ketch-Rigged Cat

[Skip JayR]

wowh... awesome cool stuff here in this thread. :-)

I just may re-post here my comment I leaved in the world of monohulls where the statement is cursing the statement "Ketch has no future - Ketch is dead" by the question "The Death of Ketch?"...

So here my personal opinion about... naturally by my interests I like to keep focus for the future more on the question: What about Ketch Rigs on Trimarans ? :-)
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Clearly I can say: Its a total nonsense to assume, that "ketch rigged boats" are out of fasion. Why should they ??? Only because there are some other trends... Good things never will be forgotten, so fare they are shared as experience from generation to generation and overhanded to younger sailors.

Yes, we see some of these mega yachts, highly rigged sloops... because of carbon masts and canting keels, water ballast and trimming tools to avoid heavily heeling. And we don't see anymore ketches on the regatta fields.

Do some remember the mega racers of Whitbread ? Monsters of the sea... and all ketches. Nowadays we would call them Dinos.

Remember Swiss-French skipper legend Pierre Fehlman's80 Foot maxi MERIT built in 1988 (Rec: You can buy this boat now. Its for sale at 160 Thousand Euros waiting in Spain for you)
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... or the legendary maxi ketch Steinlager II skippered by Sir Peter Blake. This boat was winner of the 1989/1990 Whitbread (nowadays better known as Volvo Ocean Race)


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Impressive boats of their times... as you can see in this short vid on board of Ketch MERIT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0bE_NDfZK4

I dont like to become sentimental and look back. We live in 2015 end of sailing season in North Europe... so what will be the future ?

Racing meanwhile became a business, clearly to say... being dominated by media coverage and multi-million budgets of global brands their Marketing CEOS demand a payback/revenue for "brand building". The standards here are differently from "normal sailors".

I have the trust, that there is still the market for cruisers... where Ketches have their places, no doubt about.

Thats the relevant point we have to talk about: the technical aspect why ketches never will die (and never should die). So long qualified sailors exist out there, and not fashion-kind spoilt sailors with lots of money to built their hightech man's toys in black non-recycable carbon... so long ketches can live on.

1st: sailing for most people is something "irrational". Same as some like climbing and hanging in the rocks, others need to stay on the water. Why we like to stay on salt water, a very aggressive and deadly environment for any human, regularly. Why does one like to sail a schooner, another a Yawl, another an A-Mast ? Different tastes, individual preferences of "well feeling".

2nd: boats and boat designs, and the beautyness of boats do not only attract sailors. Look at the big harbour festivals and you will understand what I am talking about. In my home town, Hanseatic City Hamburg we have annually every 1st weekend on May the annually Harbour birthday festival.... with more than 1 million visitors.

The maritime world still evokes in people - maybe already fixed in their genes by our anchestors having been nomads - the desire for travelling into the unknown, into fare distances. More masts on a boat, the bigger the desirefully dreams by the spectators. Right ? :-) As said, very irrational somehow.

Ketch rigged boats have a very special attraction, by their look. The main mast is little bit lower compared to sloops, the jagger or spanker mast some feet lower than the main mast demonstrates a beautiful picture of harmony and balance. In combination with cutter rigged headsails (Jib, Genoa, Spinnaker/Genaker) they look gorgeous.

I sailed one as professional skipper for a private boat owner, an Italian beauty of wood, which was built in the late 70th... even with wooden masts... she was not just a beauty, she was fast, too. Very fast.

The SY Tamoure had 22 meters length (plus bow sprit), only 4.9 m width with 220 m2 sails in total and a displacement of 25 tons (long keel), with 4 cabins and 11 berth... a very fast boat easily sailed 12-13 knots.
(Rec.: The rig of this boat was little bit demanding as the main + spanker mast both had backstages. Needed lots of care for the slim wooden mast profiles.)

I sailed other Ketches, too... e.g. 58 Footer Ted irwin (only have a foto of a 52 footer)...
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... and sailed Schooner rigs, Marstal galeass and traditional cutter sloops too. So I suppose I have a broad range of different boat types in mind.

3rd: Not just by the look Ketches I like most as they are beauties on their own, same the sail plan is very practically to handle. It is more easy going, even for a less experienced crew, so far in good hands of an experienced skipper to keep control over the different manovers giving enough time.

In heavy storm sailing windward with a smaller cutter jib, one reef in the spanker and two reefs in the main sail, such a boat is sailing very balanced with very low heeling. But has the pull + push power to go through the waves straight forward not bouncing too heavily.

The trimming demands little bit more "care", but I like to trim a boat sailing fast... thats why I love ketches. Its a pleasure for me. Sometimes wondering about the lazyness of cruising crews not caring for excellent trim loosing lots of potentials their boats have.

4th: Another aspect is saftyness in case of dis-masting. Better having a spanker mast in reserves you can keep going on the ocean far away from coast.

I see it like this: It is up to us, what we like to see on the water... its not just that boat designers can put something new front our eyes we see during boat shows. And we have to buy it, charter it, sail it.

If we like to sail ketches of different reasons, its up to us to demand them, e.g. from charter agencies, from warfts, sail makers, mast builders etc. ...

Last as I am little bit heavily addicted (in my new era of sailing life) to focus onto Trimarans. Here two beautiful Ketches on three hulls rarely seen:

Crhis White 52 foot Design: Trimaran Juniter (with modern Rotation Wing masts)
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46 Foot Piver Trimaran Trident (built 1982 and for sales at 40 Thousand US dollars in California)...

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Smaller Cross Norman Trimaran of 36 foots as Ketch... very charming vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK_vjG1k14o

P.S:: Hopefully my "bad English" isnt to bad... I am not a native ENG speaker. :-) )

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by Nordic cat

I think we will be seeing more unstayed rigs in the future, be it ballestrons or "normal" to further ease sail handling. Maybe even some bi-rigs but only in niche market segments, as the price will be higher than a standard aluminium extrusion.

Hi, Alan !

may I ask: Are you sailing such kind of rig ?? I ask as I see as "avatar pic" under your Alias name a "Twin Rig" catamaran. You have such one ?

Remembers me the project Team Philips, a maxi cat (37 meter length) with skipper Pete Goss... I'd call it a mega-maxi racer :-)


Would have been awesome to see this monster over last years on the racing circuit... originally being produced to participate in "THE RACE" ( I was there in Barcelona on a spectator boat at the start 31st Dec 2000 and missed Pete on the start line).



Sadly didn't make it to circumnavigate the planet as it had to be abandoned after a heavily structural damage during a test ride...

First structural damage which was repaired... :-(


The rest of the boat after it was abandoned midth Dec 2000 on the Atlantic. This last 4 ton piece (13 meters length) was sold on EBay shortly to keep it as a memory... on the hull had been more than 4,000 names all donators to finance the project.



Rare footage of this Mega Cat in London...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6nD33j-OD8

The last Ride...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPHYDcB1p4M

[beiland]

Really was a shame TP didn't make it to the starting line.

I had some friends sailing on Team Adventure in that 'RACE'. I was a bit concerned for their safety being that their boat was very late in being delivered, and not having sufficient 'break-in time' before setting off non-stop around the world.

So i was very interested in following their progress (and all the others in the RACE. But I was computer illiterate at the time, so I walked into a newly opened computer store and signed up for classes,...as well as requesting how to get on the internet so I could follow their progress in the RACE

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

wowh... awesome cool stuff here in this thread. :-)

I just may re-post here my comment I leaved in the world of monohulls where the statement is cursing the statement "Ketch has no future - Ketch is dead" by the question "The Death of Ketch?"...

So here my personal opinion about... naturally by my interests I like to keep focus for the future more on the question: What about Ketch Rigs on Trimarans ? :-)
-----------------------------

Aft Mast Alternative on Big Trimaran

Several years ago I was asked by a gentleman to come have a look at a big Kurt Hughes trimaran he was building, a 63 footer he had stretched to 65, if I remember correctly. He was VERY concerned about handling that big mainsail on that big sloop rig.

I spent a week as his guess at his home, and in the huge building shed outback he had erected to build this ultimate retirement vessel for himself, his wife and his kids. He is of Romanian decent, and has that Italian flare for home wine making (and drinking). Needless to say we had LOTS of fun drinking all sorts of home brewed wines and talking boats.

Here is what I came up with as a solution for him in the context of my mast aft theme. Please realize I was restricted by the existing structure of the vessel that was already well under way in construction...i.e., bulkhead placements, crossbeams, etc, etc.

There was one other nagging question he had, that needed to be taken into account....what if the fwd leaning mast idea would not work?? This persisted to be such a big question in his mind that I had to give considerations as to how my mast aft design could be converted back to a more standard rig configuration without a great deal of expense, and/or trouble to him.

I still chose an 'all-3 sails-furling' arrangement....my single-masted ketch concept. But I made the mast rake almost half (6 degrees) of the original design. And the mizzen sail was made a bit larger in proportion. Thus this rig could be converted to a straight standing cutter rig with the mizzen becoming a more traditional mainsail attached to the aft edge of the mast. Or a new larger mainsail could be constructed for the mast that could be extended upward (taller), but still stepped in same location. The cutter jibs would then both be fractional, but would not require modification.

Over all I sought to give him the same total sail area as the original design by Kurt Hughes. This was approx 1900 sq ft. BUT notice what happened to the mast height on these two versions !! The original sloop rig carried a 92' high rig. My rig carries that same sail area on a 73.5 foot mast !

With this significant reduction in the rig height and the 'all-furling' feature, I imagine this gentleman will be able to handle this rig without a lot of additional assistance, and he may well be able to SAFELY sail into higher wind conditions without as much fear of being overpowered....his sailing efficiency should be improved.

I had two options for the lower backstays here...1) anchored to the aft crossbeam ends (at a 13 degree angle to the mast), or 2) anchored to the ama hull ends (at a 20 degree angle). Both of these backstay angles are better than my original design, thus even less loading reqired of these backstays to offset the inner forestay loads.

I felt this shorter rig could justify a slightly shorter daggerboard, and we opted to move that daggerboard slightly forward to both be in a better balance with the new sail plan, and to better fit in with a saloon modification he had already planned.

To my knowledge at this time he is still thinking about his final rig design options, and his boat building processes have been put into a holding pattern while he attends to converting that original building shop into a multiple house dwelling. He then intends to build an even bigger shed to complete final assembly of this very big beamy trimaran. I'm not sure if he will chose my mast aft option, but I would be willing to place bets on it being a very good one for his needs.

[NOTE: The second aftmast sketch represents a more current modification of the masthead attachment of its backstay, and the ama anchoring of the lower backstay(s). These are just suggested options to the original sketch, and certainly not final ideas][/QUOTE]

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by beiland

Really was a shame TP didn't make it to the starting line.

yeah... but: no risk, no chance. So is extreme sailing. No 100% guarantee to make it.

Originally Posted by beiland

I had some friends sailing on Team Adventure in that 'RACE'.

Oh... great... small world, hm ???

I had been in contact that time with Steve Fossett (hopefully he has in heaven lots of adventures as he had on earth), with Paul Cayard, with Bruno Peyron (organizer and the "man behind" this event)... but didnt make it to come on board. (Rec.: Probably more my own mistake and failing as probably I could have hired even on the smallest cat "Warta Polpharma" which got my biggest sympathies as it was clear: they had no chance against monster Cats like Steve's Playstation.)

Originally Posted by beiland

I was a bit concerned for their safety being that their boat was very late in being delivered, and not having sufficient 'break-in time' before setting off non-stop around the world.

yeah... these racing mashines are "killers". From outside it looks great to have spectaculously pcitures from helicopter. But being on board its very dangerous, not just because of collissions (e.g. with under water drifting containers), same the risk to be hurt. The forces and loads on the winches and rigg is just "mad sailing". But yeah.... so we are as humans. We have to push the limits further on.

Originally Posted by beiland

So i was very interested in following their progress (and all the others in the RACE. But I was computer illiterate at the time, so I walked into a newly opened computer store and signed up for classes,...as well as requesting how to get on the internet so I could follow their progress in the RACE

I suppose when having been so close to this racing circuit by your friends, you missed a life time challenge.

... as I am probably not wrong to say that the times are gone for another "THE RACE" (I have heard about that Bruno and his legendary brother Loick have a 2nd edition in mind). But I cant imagine, to see 10 maxi Trimarans of 31 meter lengths on the start line like we see them nowadays on the water, e.g. Bank Populair. Something similarly planned by Gitana Sailing team for launch in 2017.

Hm... TEAM ADVENTURE... I had to help my tired brain cells little bit by Googling.... yeah... Cam Lewis, right ???

The boat was not the most beautiful (e.g. compared with the charming elegance of a Playstation), but the robustness was amazing. And it still lives, right ?








With National Geographic as sponsor... the boat came very lately into the water fully equipped on Octoboer 2000. And I can remember the rumours that they had no chance to win... but they teached all something very different. Made it 3rd place (okeys, 20 days 13 hours behind Grand Dalton's CLUB MED speedy ride of only 62d 6h 56m 33s).

Reading the news of 2nd Jan 2001 about the first day on seas (1st Jan 2001): "The first night saw some tactical decisions made. Club Med, Play Station and Innovation Explorer stayed along the Spanish Coast. Team Adventure aimed farther offshore."

Cam and his guys made it little bit different by their tactics like "outsiders" ! Risky to keep away from the fleed... but its history. Lets take a look forward. :-)

As I see now they are still together and doing "Sailing promotion" within a Foundation. Amazing that these guys are still in the business after 15 years, right ???? Bravo.....

They created Team Adventure II in 2013 ???? Must take a closer look... yet not noticed about.

[beiland]

Cam Lewes (skipper), and Randy Symth (the sail maker, Tornado silver medalist and Formula 40 champion that first year of those races in France)

My concern was just one crazy 'misadventure/mis-step' or boat item failure when surfing those big waves in the southern ocean could result in a man overboard. And it could be near impossible to get turned around in those conditions to rescue that crew member,...and even worst time at night !!

[Jasseji]

Originally Posted by beiland

Cam Lewes (skipper), and Randy Symth (the sail maker, Tornado silver medalist and Formula 40 champion that first year of those races in France)

My concern was just one crazy 'misadventure/mis-step' or boat item failure when surfing those big waves in the southern ocean could result in a man overboard. And it could be near impossible to get turned around in those conditions to rescue that crew member,...and even worst time at night !!

Hello, i am propably Necroing, but just by chance, do you know if any of your/similar designs ever made it to more Sailcats ?

This Ketch with Single mast design sounds very tempting for Family cruising indeed

[Therapy]

Always said, "when I win the lottery...".

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...rig-21331.html

[beiland]

Originally Posted by beiland

That was an interesting posting. I had not seen it. I've made a copy and reread it several times. It has more to do with hull design, but it was interesting that he used that mast-aft rig with the single foresail as a beginning,....and maybe more interesting once he experiments with a more std rig, as he mentions doing.

I also enjoyed this little quote from the article,
"For the purposes of the article, I submit that the best type of research science has no fear of being wrong, because we often learn as much from a theory which is proved wrong as from one which is proved to be right. Instead, we make progress when we make bold and clear predictions which are sufficiently explicit to be tested to destruction."

Youtube videos of aft mast sailing

Even though the breeze was light, you can also see a little of the explosive acceleration when the boat heels and the chine touches the water....towards end of video

I was just reading back thru this thread, and watched those videos. I had not noticed previously that he had twin backstays on that vessel

[beswanla]

Brian,
I have been following your website with great interest. Have you had any feedback on the performance of the two aft-mast powersailers constructed in Thailand?
Cheers, Brian Swanland