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Boatguy30 · 13-12-2018, 17:20

The design, area and shape have far more to do with "surprised how much better we sailed" wow factor than the material.

I recently purchased a new mainsail and carefully weighed my options. The guys at dimension were confident the ProRadial was almost as good as hydranet and that would be the ultimate. In nu case the hydranet was almost 2x the cost per yard so the sail was over $2000 more. Surprised your cost difference was so small on a larger sail.

My finished sail was roughly $100 per square meter of area.

VanIslandGuy · 13-12-2018, 17:48

Sails look amazing. We're planning on putting getting new sails on our H410 with the same cloth. The samples I've held in hand are incredible. Nearly impossible to crease or tear, and water runs off it like a freshly waxed car. We're B&R rigged so we plan on duplicating the square head like the video showed on the main. Thanks for sharing the video Solecolletctor.

sailjumanji · 13-12-2018, 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslandGuy

Sails look amazing. We're planning on putting getting new sails on our H410 with the same cloth. The samples I've held in hand are incredible. Nearly impossible to crease or tear, and water runs off it like a freshly waxed car. We're B&R rigged so we plan on duplicating the square head like the video showed on the main. Thanks for sharing the video Solecolletctor.

I didn't see a square head in the video.

VanIslandGuy · 13-12-2018, 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

I didn't see a square head in the video.

I didn't see a perfect triangle with a straight leech from head to clew. Power head, square head, call it whatever you like.

sailjumanji · 13-12-2018, 22:02

Here is a pic of our mainsail being built. Dimension Polyant GPL Lite Skin. In the first pic, the luff isn't finished, but you can see the shape of the sail. The head is near, the foot in the distance. The sail is folded over to fit on the floor.

The second pic shows the finish mainsail leech. The blue material piled near the base is our spinnaker just being started. AIRX 900N

Anyway, the head measures about 6.5 ft, the foot about 18.5 ft. Sail area is about 670 ft2 (62 m2). This is clearly a square top!

alansmith · 13-12-2018, 22:08

Okay, im confused. You stated that money was a consideration when buying the new performance sail. For the seriously broke arse sailors who have 15 year old mains....what did the new sails cost each (genny versus main)?

I have a 30 foot trimaran and am just starting to get my mind around the cost of a nice sail...feel free to humble me...smile

sailjumanji · 13-12-2018, 22:19

When we started the sail cloth decision, I tried to learn as much as possible about the choices. Talked to the sail cloth representatives at both the Miami and Annapolis boat shows, and a couple of sailmakers. My sailmaker initially tried to talk us out of Lite Skin, as being overkill for a cruising boat, and much more expensive. But we've already talked about "expensive" being a relative term, as adding $2000 to the cost of the sails is nothing compared to the cost of the boat. But for those of us that have raced multihulls for years before settling into cruising cats, low stretch material is the objective. No one likes the sails to get all flabby when the wind pipes up! And as Calvert talks about "performance life", or how long the sail is going to have good shape. But here is a summary of the stretch characteristics of some of the sail cloths we were considering. Taken directly from the data provided by the sail cloth manufacturers, and summarized in this table by me. The numbers represent the lbs of force required to stretch the material 1%, in the warp, fill and bias directions. Look at the numbers for Lite Skin at the bottom of the table. Look at the weight (GPL LS is lighter, and stronger). To me, the only downside to the sail is its dark color, and costs more for the material. (I don't think the labor is any more to sew Lite Skin vs dacron.) OTOH, when it eventually does mildew, it wont show!

alansmith · 14-12-2018, 21:58

Sailjumanji, somehiwnin your paragraph you stated they only cost 2k more than Dacron. But you still evaded what was the cost of Genny and main. The reason I want to know is that I’m due for my 30 foot tri. So I want to know what it cost you. I think u chose well. I’m trying to know if I can afford it before going through the hassle of bids.

I was interested to read that many sailmakers reserve the right to send their work to Asia. Of course with their supervision and CAD inputs. That was interesting for me. How do you know where your sail will be fabricated?
Respects and not trying to rile you. Just trying to extract information that will help me understand what my direction will be.

sailjumanji · 15-12-2018, 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmith

Sailjumanji, somehiwnin your paragraph you stated they only cost 2k more than Dacron. But you still evaded what was the cost of Genny and main. The reason I want to know is that I’m due for my 30 foot tri. So I want to know what it cost you. I think u chose well. I’m trying to know if I can afford it before going through the hassle of bids.

I was interested to read that many sailmakers reserve the right to send their work to Asia. Of course with their supervision and CAD inputs. That was interesting for me. How do you know where your sail will be fabricated?
Respects and not trying to rile you. Just trying to extract information that will help me understand what my direction will be.

No problem. I wrote what the price difference was for our main and jib, vs Dimension Polyant Pro Radial Dacron. That is not a cheap Dacron, but it was what I considered a minimum spec fabric for the sail loads on our multihull. I suspect you can find really cheap Dacron cloth - even the Contender Pro Radial was a lot cheaper - but where do you draw the line as to what you would put on a boat, especially a multihull?

Also, look at the season, discounts, etc. I know there are several lofts that came up with discounts around the Annapolis boat show timing. Or have sails built in their winter/off season. (Our sailmaker had a window of almost half a year to make our sails, as the boat was being built.) And the USD vs AUS dollar exchange rate ended up working in our favor (this time!). Of course you give some of that back with overseas shipping cost.

"How do I know where my sails are being built." The sailmaker sent me periodic progress pictures taken on his loft floor. I know the panels were computer cut outside of the loft. But stitching them together, and the finish work, were all done in his loft. When he had questions about reefing block attachment preference, those were emailed real time. We also had a lot of back and forth during the design phase, and as well during cloth selection. My wife reminds me that I had some hefty long distance phone charges as well, talking over different aspects of the sail design, etc. The sailmaker spoke Aussie, and it took a while to figure out that biscuits were cookies, but otherwise we were able to converse with my Texan accent.

Ok, that all said - I am going to avoid answering any "this is what my sailmaker is going to charge you for a sail questions", because I don't represent him in any financial capacity, plus I think sailmakers have the right to charge as they see fit, dependent on their schedule and workload (discounts in off seasons), even how much of a repeat customer you are (yeah, I think that is fair too).

As for your Condor 30, I am very familiar with the boat, a friend owns one and competitively races it, and there is another one in South Texas that has raced offshore with us as well. (Which is remarkable, considering how few there were made.) One has laminate sails (maybe Kevlar) and a big square top, and the other Dacron pinhead main. The performance difference between the two boats is significant.

Plus, I don't think all lofts are capable of designing multihull sails - or maybe I should say some are certainly better and have more experience than others. On previous multihulls, I've had sails built by Calvert and Ullman (Florida), and Barracouta Sails (Australia), that I have been very happy with and have proven competitive. The Quantum and Banks Sails loft in Kemah have yielded some competitive sails on other multihulls, and I know those guys continue to learn on the race course. Again, I think you pre-qualify who you would even use, based on their multihull experience, even before getting a quote.

Finally, something else to think about in cloth selection is mildew resistance, or at least that is an issue here in South Texas. The Dacrons, and Hydranet are going to be much more resistant. A laminate sail is going to have low stretch qualities, but you really need to keep it dry, or at least not have pockets of water in the folded sail. Once mildew starts to grow inside the laminate, it cant be removed. The GPL Lite Skin is touted as having some mildew resistant properties, but I think its mostly because it doesn't have the taffeta layer on the outside that is mildew prone. But the compromise is that taffeta is more chafe-resistant than the Lite Skin. We did some work designing our sail cover/stack pack so that the top is waterproof (Sunbrella Plus), the zipper is offset and on the high side and flaps cover it to keep water from coming in, the sides of the cover are standard, breathable Sunbrella, and the bottom has long panels of Phifertex screen for water to drain. So my cover probably doesn't cost the same as yours, but we are trying to protect a sail from UV and keep it dry.

All that program may not appeal to a true cruising sailor. We came from a racing background, and like a good set of sails that can point, and respond to being trimmed correctly. And it is going to be more expensive. But I think the only way to answer that for you is to suggest that you get quotes from lofts that you trust to make your sails.

Aushammer · 15-12-2018, 15:43

Hi Sailjumanji. Thanks for the very thorough rundown on choosing your new sails especially with so many choices these days. I too have an 1160 Lite and am having Neil at Barracouta make a new main in New Year.I have almost settled on the carbon lite.
Just interested to know
1. how many reefs in main?
2. What jib are you getting-small self tacking or genoa size 1 or 2?

sailjumanji · 15-12-2018, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aushammer

Hi Sailjumanji. Thanks for the very thorough rundown on choosing your new sails especially with so many choices these days. I too have an 1160 Lite and am having Neil at Barracouta make a new main in New Year.I have almost settled on the carbon lite.
Just interested to know
1. how many reefs in main?
2. What jib are you getting-small self tacking or genoa size 1 or 2?

Well you are in Aussie land, and that makes the choice even easier. I purchased my first set of sails (for a Seawind 1000) from Neil back in 2008. A main and jib. We had some discussion about roach, he sent me some designs, I picked one after some back and forth, and a few weeks later he sent me a sail. Familiar enough with Seawind that I send him zero measurements. The sail fit perfectly. It was a Pentex laminate, and had great shape even after I sold the boat ten years later. For the new boat sail, it was no question who I was going back to for sails.

To answer your questions, we went the standard three reefs in mainsail. We pushed the sail area a bit, and are at 672 ft2 square top main. Might mean we reef a little earlier than the standard sail, but OTOH when the wind is light, we can keep the boat powered up.

In south Texas, USA, where we live on the coast, we typically have good wind. I didn't want to mess with the genoa, so our boat doesn't even have the tracks optioned. We only have the self-tacking jib, although we pushed the sail area on that as well, to 256 ft2. (Pardon me but I don't have a calculator nearby to convert to your m2!)

Are you subscribed to the Seawind Club Facebook group?

Finally, Neil originally recommended the Dimension Polyant Pro Radial for my main and jib, as a good balance of cost, longevity and performance. A couple of the other Seawinds had the Lite Skin, and were overwhelming positive about it. It was a relatively minor cost difference - especially in light of the cost of the new boat - to go full-on GPL Lite Skin. Neil tweeked the design a bit from another 1160 Lite he had made sails for, and had raced on as well. I think my new main and jib ships sometime this week. New boat arrives in Miami, Florida, USA in late January.

Aushammer · 15-12-2018, 20:56

[QUOTE=sailjumanji;2782258]Well you are in Aussie land, and that makes the choice even easier. I purchased my first set of sails (for a Seawind 1000) from Neil back in 2008. A main and jib. We had some discussion about roach, he sent me some designs, I picked one after some back and forth, and a few weeks later he sent me a sail. Familiar enough with Seawind that I send him zero measurements. The sail fit perfectly. It was a Pentex laminate, and had great shape even after I sold the boat ten years later. For the new boat sail, it was no question who I was going back to for sails.

To answer your questions, we went the standard three reefs in mainsail. We pushed the sail area a bit, and are at 672 ft2 square top main. Might mean we reef a little earlier than the standard sail, but OTOH when the wind is light, we can keep the boat powered up]

Yes on Facebook group.
I suspect he will model my main after yours as I am going square top as well.
He made me a Hydranet no 2 jib to go on tracks. I decided it would be more useful than number 1 but if money was endless or I was a mad racer I'd have 1 of every size sail.
He also made me an MPS which has been superb.
Cannot fault his workmanship ,willingness to give advice and service overall.

sailjumanji · 16-12-2018, 07:58

Aushammer, I know who you are now. That sail is unmistakable. Yesterday I posted pics of our boat undergoing some final testing before leaving factory, on Seawind Club. (So you know who I am as well.)

For our mainsail design, we started with LG's sails. That main is 653 ft2. Neil extended the luff 3.3 inches, to use up the space at the top. (Which to be honest, makes me nervous a bit, but he says it will fit!) And then we carried a little more area toward the top. As we installed a radar on the spreader instead in front of the mast, that allowed Neil to extend the jib back a bit more. So our sail area "add" relative to LG was both in front and back of the mast. In the end, the center of effort (CE) moved up, but not back. So I likely will have to reef a bit sooner than LG.

We are probably getting into thread drift now, so PM or Messenger me if you want to continue discussion. But here are some pictures of Graham's boat with both the genoa and the jib. GPL Lite Skin sails by Barracouta. (We instead chose grey batten pockets and chafe material, but that is just a personal preference thing.) Alan also has Lite Skin on Talisker, has put them thru the ringer with racing and cruising, and is still very high on them (also made by Barracouta). His main is a bit smaller than LG, as the mast was different on the Aussie-made boats. We only got the self-tacking jib, as I like the convenience, plus it typically blows pretty good here on the coast in South Texas.