Performance of charter cats?

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I think you are saying that a performance cat is too dangerous to sail without a minimum of 6 professional crew....I agree, and even then there are capsizes.

This whole performance cruising cats are dangerous thing is nonsense.
Note the context. Cruising. Not racing. Yeah, no ****, when you push a racer like Fujin to the limit in 40 knots, you have a good chance of going over.

I'll flip it around and say that I think they're safer when sailed 2 up, because you won't be pushing them hard. You'll be reefed down and still sailing faster than all of the other boats, with a larger safety margin.

Something that you probably just won't get, unless you've been on a well designed performance cruising cat at over 15 knots, when you do heat them up, it simply isn't a white knuckle scary ride. Boats like mine and kinki's balance get happier, smoother and more comfortable the faster they go. They'll do this without going anywhere near flying a hull.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

This whole performance cruising cats are dangerous thing is nonsense.
Note the context. Cruising. Not racing. Yeah, no ****, when you push a racer like Fujin to the limit in 40 knots, you have a good chance of going over.

I'll flip it around and say that I think they're safer when sailed 2 up, because you won't be pushing them hard. You'll be reefed down and still sailing faster than all of the other boats, with a larger safety margin.

Something that you probably just won't get, unless you've been on a well designed performance cruising cat at over 15 knots, when you do heat them up, it simply isn't a white knuckle scary ride. Boats like mine and kinki's balance get happier, smoother and more comfortable the faster they go. They'll do this without going anywhere near flying a hull.

So you say when beating into 25-30 knots and 12 ft seas the boat is smoother and more comfortable when you are going 15 knots? The boat never slams? What does the wife say?

Safety margin is easy to calculate; its how big is the gust that capsizes you. Condomarans really do have a higher safety margin. Its hard to estimate when you're actually out there, but wives are pretty good at it.

While we're at it, how much protection does your cat have against downflooding? Does it have the typical flimsy sliding door at the back of the salon? Does it have watertight hatches sealing off each hull? Or is it like Moon Dragon?

https://www.news.uscg.mil/Press-Rele...maran-150-mil/

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

So you say when beating into 25-30 knots and 12 ft seas the boat is smoother and more comfortable when you are going 15 knots? The boat never slams? What does the wife say?

Safety margin is easy to calculate; its how big is the gust that capsizes you. Condomarans really do have a higher safety margin. Its hard to estimate when you're actually out there, but wives are pretty good at it.

While we're at it, how much protection does your cat have against downflooding? Does it have the typical flimsy sliding door at the back of the salon? Does it have watertight hatches sealing off each hull? Or is it like Moon Dragon?

https://www.news.uscg.mil/Press-Rele...maran-150-mil/

Wife-O-meter...when you are about to get a tinnitus its short before capsize :-)

Very simple a lagoon is so undercanvast that you can do what you want you want capsize it unless you put it parallel to short >5m waves...or surfing down a breaking wave and round up burring one bow.

An outremer or a shoning arrow have full sales under 25kn and get a 35kn gust from beam....min you fly a hull...

Good video:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAE

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

This whole performance cruising cats are dangerous thing is nonsense.
Note the context. Cruising. Not racing. Yeah, no ****, when you push a racer like Fujin to the limit in 40 knots, you have a good chance of going over.

I'll flip it around and say that I think they're safer when sailed 2 up, because you won't be pushing them hard. You'll be reefed down and still sailing faster than all of the other boats, with a larger safety margin.

Something that you probably just won't get, unless you've been on a well designed performance cruising cat at over 15 knots, when you do heat them up, it simply isn't a white knuckle scary ride. Boats like mine and kinki's balance get happier, smoother and more comfortable the faster they go. They'll do this without going anywhere near flying a hull.

They are safer when you really know what you are doing.
But give a masourdon to a rich dude that hardly sailed a laggon 50 , mostly motoring that thinks he has control of it....in latest one week its capsized...

Its the same then cars.
Yes a 3l woth 300hp diesel 3 series BMW is safer then a 1l petrol 50hp polo if you can handle the 300hp because you don't drive it limit wile the polo its just pedal to metal constantly...but if you can hardly handle the 50hp Polo then a 300hp diesel will kill you sooner then later as the punch eg come before center of the crurve...botanic you fly...
Same with cat...sailing a Lagoon in 35kn or an outremer or a masourdon is totally differnet...now imagine a gust comes and you wanna easy the main travel and it jams...Lagoon worse can happen you tear the sails, outremer and Masourdon you have seconds till you capsize....

[NevilleCat]

But the Marsaudon has the inbuilt safety feature of tearing off the keels so you just slip sideways in that case...

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

So you say when beating into 25-30 knots and 12 ft seas the boat is smoother and more comfortable when you are going 15 knots? The boat never slams? What does the wife say?

Safety margin is easy to calculate; its how big is the gust that capsizes you. Condomarans really do have a higher safety margin. Its hard to estimate when you're actually out there, but wives are pretty good at it.

While we're at it, how much protection does your cat have against downflooding? Does it have the typical flimsy sliding door at the back of the salon? Does it have watertight hatches sealing off each hull? Or is it like Moon Dragon?

https://www.news.uscg.mil/Press-Rele...maran-150-mil/

Come on, show a little common sense mate. Of course I'm not saying we do 15 beating up wind. I absolutely will say that the performance cat will sail up wind faster and more comfortably than the condos. They slice through the waves, they don't hobby horse. Of course we slow them down or crack off a bit for comfort, just like everyone else.

Of course, if you put a ham fisted idiot in an ORC, they'll probably mess up. Tarring everyone with that same brush is disingenuous. Most cruisers know how to sail their boats well and make and effort to learn how to do it safely.

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Good video:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAE

That's not a good video. That's also full of misleading (at best) nonsense.

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

But the Marsaudon has the inbuilt safety feature of tearing off the keels so you just slip sideways in that case...

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

But the Marsaudon has the inbuilt safety feature of tearing off the keels so you just slip sideways in that case...

That was a good one :-)

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

Come on, show a little common sense mate. Of course I'm not saying we do 15 beating up wind. I absolutely will say that the performance cat will sail up wind faster and more comfortably than the condos. They slice through the waves, they don't hobby horse. Of course we slow them down or crack off a bit for comfort, just like everyone else.

Of course, if you put a ham fisted idiot in an ORC, they'll probably mess up. Tarring everyone with that same brush is disingenuous. Most cruisers know how to sail their boats well and make and effort to learn how to do it safely.




That's not a good video. That's also full of misleading (at best) nonsense.

ROTFLMAO! Here is a dose of reality from a performance catamaran passage under bare poles. It should be required reading every time you slip the dock lines.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/featur...he-dawn-150779

[JustMurph]

Lol back at ya. The performance cruising cats we are talking about are closer to a lagoon than they are to that thing.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

Lol back at ya. The performance cruising cats we are talking about are closer to a lagoon than they are to that thing.

Well not really...an ORC is very close to that.
And well i sailed a lot and on fast boats, a buddy of mine is from swiss alingi crew.
But that ORC50 was a different animal i wouldn't be able to sail safely without having him on board for min. 3 month to teach me the limits and what to do then. Only then you know what it can do max and can judge if whats happening is ok or how much saftey margin you have.
Lagoon worst can happen you rip the sail appart.

And if you look at the amount of performance cats motoring from florida out are just ridiculous, they own a performance but treat it like a Lagoon...if they ever sail and caught in a big squal potential is high it capsizes...ask SMJ what he regularly experiences in his area.
The same like the rich kids in the Ferrari or Lambo.
..cruising yes but really fast over mountain roads they wreck it after 100m latest

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

Lol back at ya. The performance cruising cats we are talking about are closer to a lagoon than they are to that thing.

Orange was 100 ft long with a 60 ft beam. If you were in a 50 ft performance cat in those conditions, you would be walking on the ceiling.

This year, Charles Caudrelier parked up his 100 ft tri for 3 days at the dock before he finished his RTW solo race. He almost flipped in the Atlantic before he stopped.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...ulti-hull-race

Cole Brauer sailed through 58 knots the day before she finished her solo RTW in a Class 40 mono, and had to redo her nails before she finished.

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...-right-person/

Who's got balls of steel and who's a poofter?

Who's got a blue water boat?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Orange was 100 ft long with a 60 ft beam. If you were in a 50 ft performance cat in those conditions, you would be walking on the ceiling.

This year, Charles Caudrelier parked up his 100 ft tri for 3 days at the dock before he finished his RTW solo race. He almost flipped in the Atlantic before he stopped.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...ulti-hull-race

Cole Brauer sailed through 58 knots the day before she finished her solo RTW in a Class 40 mono, and had to redo her nails before she finished.

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...-right-person/

Who's got balls of steel and who's a poofter?

Who's got a blue water boat?

Detect a bit of thread drift and a lot of bias entering here.

These are ridiculous snippets so far removed from cruising as to be laughable. There are hundreds of tiny cats and charter cats that sail "blue water" without incident. The difference is between racing or cruising.

I have also "sailed" under full control using AP in 57 knots, of wind and 8 m breaking waves (24 hours), with 4 reefs in the main, a feat that would have been very scary on a charter cat or a cruising monohull. Of the two monos on the same passage one was rolled and the other broke their boom.

Cooking Fat - tiny Wharram RTW
Hokule'a - RTW, ancient Hawaiian replica, 500 hundred year old technology and the support boat, modern monohull, was not able to keep up.

I personally know of three "blue water" monohulls that have sunk, one sadly without trace and with loss of lives. I also know of two catamaran incidences, one where the crew were taken off, the cat sailed on and remained the right way up. The other "charter" cat went on a reef and was recovered with minor damage to her mini-keels, one of the monohulls mentioned went onto the same reef ripped a hole in the side and sank.

The primary difference between charter and performance is keels or boards. I have para-anchor on board but have never felt the need to use it, however I think this is an essential item for a "charter" cat venturing off shore (blue water).

[smj]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

ROTFLMAO! Here is a dose of reality from a performance catamaran passage under bare poles. It should be required reading every time you slip the dock lines.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/featur...he-dawn-150779

Your silly

[Mpetri]

I don't sail any Bali cat, but I have test shortly a Catana 431 and I have owned a Lipari 41 2014 for 3 years and now a FP Venezia 42 1994 since 2023.

I am very happy with my V42 (and I was completely satisfy also with L41 before, and by the way also with almost any of each mono-hulls I have owned before - 11 sailboat from 30 to 45 feet sloop sailboat mainly performance cruise in 25 years - like Elan 45 2001 that give me a lot of satisfactions by sailing very well in any light conditions of wind).

At the moment with my cruising cat, I can sail at 32° AWA with a SOG 4,5 in only 6,1 knots of TWS (but the TWA is about 55°) with only original jib (dacron and little about 95% of the J) and mainsail (not square top and in poor dacron), both almost 6 years old, so I think that if I can take modern and laminate new sails ($$) I will do much better than this.
Moreover due to the fact that cruising cats in my opinion are underpowered, with not so much sail-area, it is truly important do have sails in order to go fast also with light winds.
For example with my 2 cats I always have a gennaker (now 122sqm) and a code-0 (72 sqm) that let me sail with a big smile in my face also with very light wind (4 knots TWS) by overtaking most of the monohulls around me.

But I belive that in order to enjoy our boats we have to learn how to fine tuning them at best, and with a lot of willing and time, try to understand them.
Also important is to invest in foldering props, avoiding all weights possible (air cond, big battery, gen: NOOO!) and to invest almost 1 year in order to have a real symbiosis with them (it tooks not less than 1 year for me to understand how to sail a boat in a "decent way").