New style Harryproa cruiser

[downunder]

Here you step out from the saloon into the direct sun. Not acceptable.

[rob denney]

Absolutely agree about sun protection. A sun shade that prevents you seeing the sails, or that requires a hole for the helmsman so he can see the sails and the course is pretty much a waste if you want to enjoy sailing. A soft bimini is not going to last long in a blow, and a hard bimini is potentially dangerous. The proposed Cruiser solution (not on the drawings yet) is a soft cover on a roller mounted on the lee edge of the cabin roof, which is attached to poles on or next to the toy box.

Unroll as much or as little as required to provide shade, without blocking the view of the sails, roll it up at night so you can see the stars and remove the whole thing and put it below in a storm. Either roll up or telescoping edge battens to stop it flapping. And the option of zip on sides and/or extensions across to the masts.

This has long seemed like a sensible solution, but I have never seen it done on a boat. Does anyone have any experience of it, or can think of any pitfalls?

Thanks.

[lucdekeyser]

Originally Posted by downunder

Some discussion of twin rigs by Dereck Kelsall from another forum.

Quote
"Twin rigs - for more information.
...
We have designs in progress for both KCR and Freestanding. ..

On his web site Kelsall estimates a 25-30% reduction in weight KCR vs Freestanding. Is this of the whole rig or of the whole boat structured to take into account the presence or lack of stays.

[lucdekeyser]

Originally Posted by rob denney

Absolutely agree about sun protection. ...
The proposed Cruiser solution (not on the drawings yet) is a soft cover on a roller mounted on the lee edge of the cabin roof, which is attached to poles on or next to the toy box.

Thank you, downunder, for insisting on this issue. Having worked in Thailand a couple of decades ago I remember now the "weight" of the sun at times.
This solution reminds me of the side mounted awnings of campers. That looks simple enough with plenty of options.
I guess these are not common on catamarans as there is a need to have a line of sight above the cabin which only an open/screened-front bimini would provide.

[downunder]

Living in the tropics it is one of the no1 issues. I much prefer a rigid structure which should not be heavy infused and anyway I doubt those camper structures are light. Would have to have it specially made as I doubt the camper structures are made for marine application.

The structure also helps with protection in rain and heavy weather.

Regarding seeing all sails all the time. You are cruising not racing and I thought the rig was safe and easy to manage. Strategically placed hatches improve sight lines anyway and a hardtop increases water catchment area simply.

[lucdekeyser]

Originally Posted by downunder

Living in the tropics it is one of the no1 issues. I much prefer a rigid structure which should not be heavy infused and anyway I doubt those camper structures are light. Would have to have it specially made as I doubt the camper structures are made for marine application.

The structure also helps with protection in rain and heavy weather.

I see. The following is a view of the helm station, probably standing close to one of the masts. Remark the benches on either side of the cabin.

Would you recommend thus having such a lightly infused structure cover the whole of the bridge deck? If going past half way to lee the base of the sails needs to be raised above that roof. Is there a roof shape that would minimize windage and protect against being picked up in stormy winds even when coming from the "wrong" direction? Or do you think from your experience that this worry is exaggerated?

[rob denney]

Originally Posted by downunder

Living in the tropics it is one of the no1 issues. I much prefer a rigid structure which should not be heavy infused and anyway I doubt those camper structures are light. Would have to have it specially made as I doubt the camper structures are made for marine application.

It would be specially made, but it is a tube with an axle each end and something to mount it in, so not a big expense. The trick is to stop it flapping by a) the battens and b) keeping it taut, which is fairly simple.

Originally Posted by downunder

The structure also helps with protection in rain and heavy weather.

True, and it should be strong and rigid enough to withstand a decent blow. On the 60 in rain you would take the steering wheel inside and steer from there. Or pull out a metre or so of cover and shelter to lee of the cabin

Originally Posted by downunder

Regarding seeing all sails all the time. You are cruising not racing and I thought the rig was safe and easy to manage.

The rig is easier and safer than other rigs, but not automatic. You still have to see the sails to trim them.
You don't need to see all the sails all the time, but it is much more enjoyable if you can see them without having to move. This is not possible on many cats with shade over the helm.

Originally Posted by downunder

Strategically placed hatches improve sight lines anyway and a hardtop increases water catchment area simply.

Hatches help, but are pretty ordinary for that sitting under a billion stars feeling.
I would be wary of drinking water off most boat roofs without a decent amount of bleach or similar added to it as it takes a while for rain to wash the seagull crap, salt and other pollution off. I prefer a separate tarpaulin with a drain hole in the middle and spread it between the masts and cabin when it rains if I need water. Would double as a full size shade at anchor. Given the unreliability of rain (and piped water in a lot of places) and the reliability of watermakers, I prefer a water maker, which is what is specced on the Cruiser.

It is not a big deal to add a solid roof, just does not make as much sense as a rollup one, to me.

[lucdekeyser]

Somehow I overlooked the shade planned for the 20m Portugese cruising proa on this drawing . Central seating has the advantage here vs the beamward seating arrangements in the HP cruiser. I suppose it is an optical illusion that it looks like the boom could hit the roof. The roof is raised because this proa does not have a through view to the side.

Would the array of windows to the side of the cabin of the HP cruiser be sufficient to drop the roof extension to the same level of existing roof without offset to allow overlooking the cabin roof to the side? I guess this may not be a good idea with front windows being splashed continually in bad weather. But for side windows?

[lucdekeyser]

Big Wave Rider shows an attractive setup with a combination of a hardtop and a softtop roof extension making double use of the davits. If one considers the central helm position of the HP proa this looks like a sturdy compromise with low additional windage, good forward view and view through the side windows (though lacking in this cat)
at 1:10 of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC67iE5OYjs

[downunder]

Originally Posted by lucdekeyser

Somehow I overlooked the shade planned for the 20m Portugese cruising proa on this drawing . Central seating has the advantage here vs the beamward seating arrangements in the HP cruiser. I suppose it is an optical illusion that it looks like the boom could hit the roof. The roof is raised because this proa does not have a through view to the side.

Would the array of windows to the side of the cabin of the HP cruiser be sufficient to drop the roof extension to the same level of existing roof without offset to allow overlooking the cabin roof to the side? I guess this may not be a good idea with front windows being splashed continually in bad weather. But for side windows?

I would prefer to give up a foot of sail area to have shade. But then again thats from someone who lives and intends to in the tropics.

Proa File | Proa Luca Antara nearing completion

Luca Antara

[daletournier]

Just like to congratulate Rob on such an innovative design, if innovators dissappeared where would we be? Do I know how this would sail? Or handle bad weather? No idea, never sailed one! Do I like the concept? Absolutely! No slamming, stayless masts, good accommodation and the promise of sailing when others are motoring, what's not to like? As for the stayless masts? Ive sailed a 30 year old carbon fiber mast yacht for 6 years, approx 15, 000nm, most of the anti stayless arguements are just silly and delivered by people that have never owned or sailed on one. It would be hard for me to go back to wires on a cruising boat.
What is the estimate cost of building this boat? I apologize if I missed the cost in a previous post.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Kokanee]

I also admire people willing to follow the road less traveled.

Best of luck with the project, Luc.

I work with the fellow who is building Luca Antara, another 60ft HarryProa. He too is a unique individual.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

Well I disagree entirely.
I always can do the same thing a second time MUCH faster.
The only exception I can think of is having sex, the first time it went very quickly.

Classic.... I will be sure to use that analogy.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by rob denney

You would have to discuss the speeds with Mark Giles, the most experienced multi journo in Aus at the time. He is the guy who claimed them. It's not really important as my point was whether harryproas are "unknown quantities" or not. The boat was set up for coastal cruising with new sails (which needed a recut).

I have asked before, but don't recall an answer. How fast do you (and anyone else with an opinion) think it is going (based on the water going past the boat, rather than the spray) and how strong is the wind? Compare them both to the water and wind effects in the video of your very nice boat if it helps.
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It's impossible to assess resale value or build cost of the Cruiser 18 until one has been built, sailed and sold. Much easier with catamarans. Maybe you could supply pro built costs of one off 40' and 60' cruising cats and their second hand value. We can at least compare this with the build cost of the Cruiser to see what it would need to sell second hand for as a comparison.
All the harryproa owners I have discussed this with buy their boats because of their unique properties, not because they want to sell them.
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The same hull is always to windward because proas shunt. Shunting | Less effort than an overlapping headsail, a little slower than tacking, a fair bit slower than gybing, and much safer and more reliable than either, especially in heavy weather. See http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...be-143727.html for an idea of what is involved in not very strong (25 knots) winds on a cat.

To gybe the proa, you sail beam on to the wind, release the main sheet and pull it in from the other end (a couple of feet of lightly loaded sheet). As you do so, the boat stops and starts sailing in the opposite direction and you bear away onto the new course. No reefing and unreefing the mainsail or furling/unfurling the jib, no rounding up, winching in the flogging sails, tacking without getting into irons or "zone of death" as you bear away and no surfing down waves while you sheet in the main and ease it out.

The design advantage of the different hulls is that you can have one hull for it's sailing qualities (long, low, lean and always to leeward) and one for it's living qualities (high, wide and always to windward, with plenty of space hanging off it. Makes it much easier to see the sails and keeps all the sailing action (and danger) away from those in the cockpit.
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There are more important reasons than total weight and purchase cost for choosing an unstayed mast.
such as the much lower centre of gravity which significantly reduces pitching and the weight of the structure required to support it is less, making for a lighter boat overall. A data point: A 17.5m long Visionarry (the one in the first video) mast, with righting moment of 18 tonne metres (similar to the 44'cruising cat, I think) weighs 120 kgs, costs $Aus15,000/$US12,000. The cog is about 6m above the waterline.

The main advantage is the handling issues. To be able to raise, reef and lower the main regardless of wind strength or direction is a big deal for short handed sailors in unexpected squalls. The normal solution is to reduce sail for night sailing, when short handed or when the forecast is bad. The unstayed rig can be completely depowered (or just left to weathercock, or sheeted on as much or as little as required) in seconds, on any point of sail. It also bends and depowers in gusts, which is a very effective safety valve. Reefing with the sail pointing into the wind and the boat almost stationery is much easier and safer than with it partly filled and pressing against the shrouds. You keep full sail up until the wind increases, then reduce it quickly and safely.

The other big advantage is not having to worry about something breaking and the whole lot falling down. A properly designed and built unstayed mast will need no maintenance, will not need to be climbed regularly to look for problems, won't need to be taken out every year or so and will never need new rigging. These advantages apply to cats and monos as well.
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Blasting through big seas with the early bows and rudders (those in the videos) kicks up a lot of spray. The new bows are finer, the rudders much less intrusive so there'll be less spray, but still some. It's a trade off for rudders that can be steered when lifted, kick up in a collision and don't require holes below the waterline or dagger boards. The steering position is a long way upwind of the rudders, so the spray is unlikely to wet the crew.
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Harryproa experience. Luc has sailed on at least one, I have sailed on several. You guys? Does not stop you having an opinion, but with some of your comments, it does indicate how much weight that opinion should be given.

If you can get Russ, Joe or Sven to intelligently discuss harryproas I will be pleasantly surprised. It is something I have been trying to do for nearly 20 years. You will have no trouble getting them to discuss me, and it will all be negative. All of them are or were (Joe and Sven seem to have given up, Russ is going gangbusters) my business competitors. As far as I know, none of them have sailed on a harry.

rob

I feel compelled to say something here in support of this Rob chap and the other fellow lucdekeyser who I believe must be going to be the first recipient of the 60 foot cruiser. These guys are design pioneers of technology and are willing to undertake risk and put themselves beyond the comfort zone of conservative design.

Sink or swim the end results will tick off a lot of boxes that others are too timid to discover for themselves. My simpleton grasp of maths and physics suggest the numbers do stack up but even if the performance spec is not totally reached the proven knowledge given over to boat design with respect to what works and what does not will be immense. Not forgetting construction methodology as well.

Any tom tit can design a conventional caravan, sorry I mean catamaran. The laws of physics are available to us all with about a 1000 books on cat design to go with it. The difference here is the laws of physics are being applied in a new way in uncharted territories to give us something new and maybe even better. I take my hat of to you Rob for your vision and determination to see your design through to a reality and I also bow to you Mr lucdekeyser for being a patron of boat evolution.

I think these chaps should be applauded yet I have read this thread from top to toe and see so much ridicule disguised as critique. It is truly shocking. I have a suggestion for Rob that may placate some of the more objectionable detractors. Find a dedicated place for a barbecue midships because I think their biggest secret worry is what to do with the half cooked sausages when needing to shunt. Wet sausages.. How uncouth would that be. Oh - maybe you should stay the BBQ as well because it will be less expensive to make and will provide spare funds for the dishwasher.

Anyway. I wish the both of you the very best of success and thanks for being design pioneers and pushing back those boundaries of knowledge with your hard work, dedication and vision. Hip, Hip and all that!

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by lucdekeyser

I see. The following is a view of the helm station, probably standing close to one of the masts. Remark the benches on either side of the cabin.

Would you recommend thus having such a lightly infused structure cover the whole of the bridge deck? If going past half way to lee the base of the sails needs to be raised above that roof. Is there a roof shape that would minimize windage and protect against being picked up in stormy winds even when coming from the "wrong" direction? Or do you think from your experience that this worry is exaggerated?

I think all you need is a light diagonal roll-able porch. Black mesh. Your vision would not be obscured if it was diagnonal but it would be enough to stop you scorching. see here. Screenshot by Lightshot