Cost of power vs. sail

[delmarrey]

How about if we put it this way.

A sailboat has the option of sail or power or both at a slower speed.

But a powerboat doesn't have an option. If you were off shore a long distance and the motor quits then your stuck.

As well, would you take a powerboat into the same weather as you would a sailboat.

And you have to compare Cats to Cats and Mono's to Mono's, crossing designs is apples to oranges.

On the other hand would you have as much comfort space, storage and conveniences on a sailboat.

And how old is the boat going to be? Old powerboats tend to be a parts and maintenance nightmare. Whereas, old sailboats usually get retrofitted to newer, more modern equipment over time.

Another point, cost of fuel is only cheap in remote parts of the world. And comparing prices to the original posters area can only be justified.

It all comes down to ones own comfort/economical level, period!

[Seeratlas]

Cat man says his 50 foot cat powboat "will" be cheaper to run. Well, we will all just have to wait and see won't we.

In the meantime, EVERY other sailor/powerboater I've ever met, and I mean guys with the boats, in the water, well, for these guys, this 'issue' is a non-issue. I can't recall anyone ever even suggesting that the costs of owning and using a world cruising capable powerboat is even close to any remotely equivalent world cruising sailboat.

Cat seems to have convinced himself that he has discovered a state of powerboating nirvana that no one else seems to have reached. With fuel prices headed towards 6, 7 and in some places already up to $8.00 US "pesos" (heheheh) per gallon, I believe his brave new world will be extremely scarcely populated....

My father built a 58ft semi displacement powerboat to accompany me in my 54 foot sloop for almost 14 years up and down the pacific northwest coast- a notoriously wind-fickle and demanding current driven area. His costs were many multiples of mine. period, end of story, not even close. same speeds, same travel times, dates, and locations, same anchorages, same everything (he had more above deck viewing locations but I had the better on board tub heheh. I believe I saw more whales, and he might have caught a few more fish. People definitely got more seasick with him than with me, and I believe he clearly edged me with the coat and tie cocktail party at the dock crowd. (it was a beautiful boat, i'll give him that

in any event, wishing you all the luck, cat.

seer

[44'cruisingcat]

I can't believe some of you people. You need to read at what Catmando is saying properly. He isn't comparing a semi-displacement boat to a sail boat. He is building essentially a very efficient sailing catamaran - putting SLIGHTLY bigger engines in, and instead of spending the money on a rig and sails, he is investing the money, and using the interest and possibly some of the principal to buy fuel.

He is NOT saying it's cheaper to run a 150 foot gin palace than a J24.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I can't believe some of you people. You need to read at what Catmando is saying properly. He isn't comparing a semi-displacement boat to a sail boat. He is building essentially a very efficient sailing catamaran - putting SLIGHTLY bigger engines in, and instead of spending the money on a rig and sails, he is investing the money, and using the interest and possibly some of the principal to buy fuel.

He is NOT saying it's cheaper to run a 150 foot gin palace than a J24.

I think we need to go back to the original posters question!

Originally Posted by Houcruzer

In reading various websites I ran across a statement last night that over a period of 2-4 years the cost of owning and operating a sail boat is about the same as a power boat. With fuel costs what they are that seems like a strange statement to me. Can anyone offer your thoughts and/or experiences? Your input is greatly appreciated.

I don't think this member intends to build his own custom built vessel. I appreciate Catmando's input about his vessel and the engineering he has put into it along with it's efficiency . BUT, I believe the original posters intentions were to buy a vessel.

Maybe Catmando would be willing to sell his vessel to the orig'l poster. And with it being the only one out there and the construction being grandfathered in, in OZ, I doubt it!

[44'cruisingcat]

The Dashews claim their power boat is as cheap or cheaper to operate than their sailboats, when all the costs of ownership are added up. Catmando has done the figures too, and reached a similar conclusion.

People who have done none of the sums are still arguing the point, based purely on opinion.

I should point out that this thread is in the MULTIHULL forum. So the original poster was not referring to semi-displacement game-fishing boats, or gas guzzling sportscruisers. He was presumably asking about high efficiency power catamarans or tri's.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The Dashews claim their power boat is as cheap or cheaper to operate than their sailboats, when all the costs of ownership are added up. Catmando has done the figures too, and reached a similar conclusion.

People who have done none of the sums are still arguing the point, based purely on opinion.

I should point out that this thread is in the MULTIHULL forum. So the original poster was not referring to semi-displacement game-fishing boats, or gas guzzling sportscruisers. He was presumably asking about high efficiency power catamarans or tri's.

My point still stands;

I don't think this member intends to build his own custom built vessel. I appreciate Catmando's input about his vessel and the engineering he has put into it along with it's efficiency . BUT, I believe the original posters intentions were to buy a vessel.

Where is this poster going to find a cat like Catmando's ?

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

How about if we put it this way.

A sailboat has the option of sail or power or both at a slower speed.

But a powerboat doesn't have an option. If you were off shore a long distance and the motor quits then your stuck.

Twin engines del, in seperate hulls with seperate fuel and seperate power/batteries. Theres the redundancy.

As well, would you take a powerboat into the same weather as you would a sailboat.

This is the whole point of my build, I don't PLAN to take it out in the rough, though she'll be capable.

If doing a crossing and I get caught, I will use a parachute anchor instead of beating the boat about, but being able to do 10 knot cruise in flat water means I should be able to pick a glassy window (just like we did on that Vanuatu trip recently, wind gusted to 5 knots there at one stage)

And you have to compare Cats to Cats and Mono's to Mono's, crossing designs is apples to oranges.

Correct, though the cruisinng in SEA link here Untitled Document

Shows that even a 49 ft heavy timber fishing boat with a Gardner 6LX diesel ( 10 litre disp 127 hp) cruised economicaly.

This is in a boat that weighs (full load) 32 tonne

If you go above your most economical speed, your fuel usage goes up exponentially. On a displacement boat of 40 – 50 ft your best fuel economy will most likely be a bit under hull speed, or about 6 - 8 knots. On Lifeline we travel at 7 knots at 1150RPM, which gives us fuel economy of 8 litres (2 US gallons) per hour or about 3 tenths of a gallon to go 1 nautical mile.

I have twin Cummins B3.3 (3.3 litre) putting out 65hp each, so I would think fuel usage similar, but on a boat that weighs (full load) 8.5 tonne and with smaller footprint speed will increase

On the other hand would you have as much comfort space, storage and conveniences on a sailboat.

Not usualy

And how old is the boat going to be? Old powerboats tend to be a parts and maintenance nightmare. Whereas, old sailboats usually get retrofitted to newer, more modern equipment over time.

In my case brand new, but what does it matter?

If old sailboats get retrofitted to newer (new rig , sails , winches) would'nt the powerboat get the same (engine rebuild and eventual new engine drivetrain) would not the old sailboat eventually need a new engine as well, but more from "lack of use"

Another point, cost of fuel is only cheap in remote parts of the world. And comparing prices to the original posters area can only be justified.

That is correct, though even in Australia with diesel currently $1-30/litre, the cost of rig/sails and deck hardware on my example would still allow me to cruise up and down the QLD coast 50 times or travel around the world twice.

Thats more than most posters here would do in a lifetime, for some several lifetimes

It all comes down to ones own comfort/economical level, period!

As stated earlier, for me, with the areas and times I want to cruise through them, I would probably be motoring anyway.

If sail or power (in my example) I have to purchase the engines now BUT in the power option I dont have to purchase the rig now ($60k) but can spread that over many years, meaning I can get in the water NOW and not have to work for years more to find the $60k.

Dave

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Seeratlas

.

Cat seems to have convinced himself that he has discovered a state of powerboating nirvana that no one else seems to have reached.

Nothing new about boats using 1 litre/NM. if doing around 7 to 10 knots with low powered engines.

Dave

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by spencer53

Each to their own opinion but saying that a power boat with the same power plant as mine would burn the same amount of fuel is first not only incorrect but also discounts the increased efficiency of motorsailing.

What about the cost of the Rig?

In addition, a sailboat also has the choice of motoring OR sailing... OR as previously mentioned, motorsailing. Safer in my opinion

What about the cost of the rig?

.

As far as the cost of my sailing rig in this equation, and how much fuel it would buy- my rig will still be doing its job long after the fuel that its "cost" could buy is used up. It has already paid for itself in fuel savings.

Are you sure about that? You either
a) Do a huge amount of miles under sail, more than most who post here ever would

or

b) get your rig, sails and deck hardware at insanely cheap prices

Now lets factor in engine maintenance shall we? How many hrs do I put on my diesel as compared to a powerboat underway. That's a nobrainer.

What are we talking about filters and oil every 500 hours ?

What about wear and tear on rig, sails and blown gear

Range? Another nobrainer. Given the time, I can circumnavigate with the fuel I have onboard. Powerboat? I doubt it.

Should be able to do 2500NM with the fuel I can carry (2600 litres), but the longest passage I plan on doing is probably 800NM A no brainer for me.

Back to my opening statement, a powerboat with the same engine as my sail would most likely use LESS fuel than I (strictly motoring).

A broad sweeping statement, but less drag and no lead I would like to think so.

Not sure if your motor in a 100 ft barge would use the same litres/nm as an efficient hull shape/light long boat though

A "long lean powerboat say 53 ft" would not be a fair comparison. I don't think the point of this thread was to compare wildy different boats to one another and consider cost differences

Long and lean was a hull shape similar to your own spencer 53, (I assume it is efficient) but without the few tonne of lead and without the rig dragging through the sky

. I took it as a question from someone asking for thoughts as to operating cost between power and sail given similarity in displacement. Comparing supertankers and AC boats to whatever is useless and has no bearing whatsoever.

Yet you compared gas guzzlers at your marina to sail

I actually have always compared and am building simailar style of vessels, basically a sail boat without the sails.

Either way, if you like powerboats, then run a powerboat. If you like sailboats, run a sailboat. Where I am, there are many people TRYING to sell their powerboats and when asked why they are selling most reply that with the cost of fuel going up they can no longer afford or justify taking their boat out and therefore it becomes a "dock queen

But these are'nt "efficient" power boats are they?

Not seeing that phenomenon with sailboats. Take a brand new 40 foot sailboat and a brand new 40 foot power boat (and we'll even make the joke that they both have the same engine), operate them exactly the same distance over time, same conditions, add up the operating costs after lets say 5 years of this and see who has more money in their pocket.

Depend's on the boat and usage does'nt it

Take my brand new 50 ft powercat and compare to a brand new 50ft sail version and in 5 years time I'll be well in front as I'll be going a couple of hunred miles offshore to the reef and staying there when there is NO WIND, so the $60 k rig will be of no use to me, but still would have cost me $60k.

Besides, what fool would put a 40 foot sailboat auxilliary engine in a 40 foot powerboat as a main powerplant?

Plenty do use similar size though. We all dont have to charge around at 20 knots.

Chincogan 52 ft sailcats have had 75hp turbo yanmars x 2.

My sail version of the powercat would have had 40hp x 2

Schonning prowler 42 ft powercat has had 55hp yanmar x 2

I'll have 65hp x 2, that sounds close enough to me.

Dave

[Seeratlas]

Cat, let me know when you have her in the water and actually performing in accordance with your calculations. In seeking to offset what I see as a never ending escalation of fuel prices, I've done my own research and come up with what some are now calling "parallel diesel electric" which in my case means installing an 8 to 12 hp DC motor thru a clutch onto the main shaft-with a controller capable of regenerating power back into the battery bank when either the wind or the main diesel is powering the prop. Add some solar and a wind gen and sufficient battery storage (48volt banks in my case) and I'm 'forecasting' substantially less use of the main with the attendant savings on fuel, wear and service. Fuel because it will be operated far less as in a sailing vessel one uses the main mostly for maneuvering in and around tight anchorages or around a dock, or when there is not enough wind for sailing and one simply HAS to get or keep moving. Wear- because *most* diesels are most efficient near their torque peaks which are far more than what is required for general motorsailing, or slow speed maneuvering. Further extended low speed low load operation screws up more diesels than almost any other factor so I'll be avoiding almost all of that, while still having a full sized and powered main when I really NEED full power to run an inlet, deal with a strong current, or heavy weather. Service-because of the foregoing reasons and the fact that the best way to ensure longevity of a diesel in a marine environment is with closed cooling and dry exhaust. with no salt getting near the motor, things last a helluva lot longer. The last big bennie of the electric installation is that of motorsailing which most sailors avoid because of the sound and smell of the diesel chugging away ruining the sailing "effect". BUT, what if you could just dial up a rheostat in the cockpit? Say you're tooling along with enough wind to do 3 knots..well if you power up the prop to equal the water speed, you've just saved 1/2 to 3/4 of a knot right there by eliminating the drag...dial in a bit more power and its pretty easy to get another knot or two using relatively little power. now you're up to 5 or even six knots and everyone is marveling at your light air performance .
toss in no noise and almost no vibration, and "motorsailing" begins to take on a whole new look. Throw in the induced wind effect..and well..the potential looks very good. The installation is simple, costing me about the equivalent of two trips to the fuel dock. I won't know for sure how it works till i'm back in the water after the refit, but on paper, it looks pretty good.

Oh, one last thing, you know that slaming the gear shift back and forth from forward to reverse when you're trying to move around in a tight spot slowly? With the electric you just twist your rheo or move your joystick back and forth thru center and with the reversal of polarity, comes reversal of the prop, thus saving your main's tranny and clutch...oh, and you have full torque from the DC motor whether you're at 10 rpm or 2000....makes life around the marina a LOT more peaceful.



seer

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Seeratlas

Cat, let me know when you have her in the water and actually performing in accordance with your calculations.

I have already provided links on bigger heavier boats that do 1 litre/nm and light low powered boats that do same.

I'm not re-inventing anything here so I don't see why my example should be any different.

Oh, one last thing, you know that slaming the gear shift back and forth from forward to reverse when you're trying to move around in a tight spot slowly? With the electric you just twist your rheo or move your joystick back and forth thru center and with the reversal of polarity, comes reversal of the prop, thus saving your main's tranny and clutch...oh, and you have full torque from the DC motor whether you're at 10 rpm or 2000....makes life around the marina a LOT more peaceful.

I'll actually be using the boat and very very rarely do marinas, so that won't be an issue and cats are much easier to manouver than monos, withe engines 20ft+ appart.


Dave

[delmarrey]

Sounds find to me!

Now they can spend part of their retirement years building or retrofitting an off-shore cat so they can cruise for........ how long?

Some quotes from the link you supplied:

Lifeline is a 49 ft timber boat that used to fish for lobster in the southern part of Australia, an area notorious for its gales and rough seas. We had her converted to a cruising boat capable of long distance passage making in a one year project between 2000 and 2001.

First of all, to live on a small budget on a power cruiser, it is particularly important to choose the right boat....

Cruising Costs

Lifeline has been our home since June 2001, when we retired. We no longer keep a land base or car and have pared down our furniture and household goods so they fit into a 10ft x 10ft garden shed. So we have very little “non-cruising” expenditure once money has come into our bank account. We live off income of under $25,000 ($US21,000) per year.

Here are our Six Secrets:
2. Travel distance less – stay in places more. On a motorboat, the more distance you travel, the more fuel you use. The more fuel you use, the more money you spend. Set your travel horizons to meet your budget.

5. Slow down to your most economical speed. Even if you have selected an easily driven displacement hull matched with an economical engine, you can still drive it at a range of revs. It is possible to draw graphs to work out the most efficient speed for your boat. Or you can do it through trial and error. If you go above your most economical speed, your fuel usage goes up exponentially. On a displacement boat of 40 – 50 ft your best fuel economy will most likely be a bit under hull speed, or about 6 - 8 knots. On Lifeline we travel at 7 knots at 1150RPM, which gives us fuel economy of 8 litres (2 US gallons) per hour or about 3 tenths of a gallon to go 1 nautical mile.

So, all things being equal, would it cost more for a couple to cruise under power rather than sail? Probably - but not by as much as you might think.

And so on........
They never did say how much the boat actually cost them before it's conversion. and they have already put in around 5000g of fuel (at todays costs ). Maybe the boat was lucky find And not many people are willing to buy a 35 yo wooden boat.

But to each his own.

[Seeratlas]

[quote=cat man do;118979]I have already provided links on bigger heavier boats that do 1 litre/nm and light low powered boats that do same.I'm not re-inventing anything here so I don't see why my example should be any different.)

Fair enough, I just prefer hearing first hand experience rather than the heady smell of someone else's cork.


"I'll actually be using the boat and very very rarely do marinas, so that won't be an issue and cats are much easier to manouver than monos, withe engines 20ft+ appart."

So, with two engines running you're going to better the fuel consumption of a single engined boat? If you're only going to run one, are you raising the other out of the water? If not, what about the drag of the dead prop? Is single engine propulsion "20 feet apart" not going to require a bit of rudder to maintain a straight course? And doesn't the deflection of water by the rudder to compensate for an off axis "push" use up energy? and induce drag?

Lastly, since you're going to be 'using the boat' and only rarely encountering a marina, fuel dock, crowded anchorages, etc., you will perhaps have no need to consider low speed maneuvering. Now for me, well, I've always found it a bit too exciting for my taste to pick up a mooring, or set an anchor, wind my way around the marina to get alongside the fuel dock or even negotiate a narrow entrance passage-all at high speed, but then again, maybe that's just me. In the fourteen years I solo'd a 54 ' 55k sloop up and down the west coast of the US, from Baja to Glacier Bay, though I clearly didn't meet your standard of 'using a boat' I did in my own humble way, actually manage to find a number of instances where the ability to effectively maneuver at low speed was quite useful..but hey, I'm probably the only one, right?


And as for the vastly superior maneuvering ability of lightweight cats...well...I've seen some amazing cat dancing antics in stiff winds in a crowded anchorage..light displacement cats DO after all sail very well sideways to a good breeze, even if they don't have any sails. Just for fun, take a look at the scheduling of large boat shows near you. Try to get out there a few days in advance and watch em bring the boats in. If you get lucky and it occurs on a day with a nice breeze, well, nothing like a good cat fight.

Now, like I said, first hand knowledge trumps in my book, and my book is not entirely, 'thin'. I'll be interested in hearing about your results when this boat of yours hits the water. In the meantime you're simply talking about something you've never experienced and have not done. Not to say it can't happen as you predict...but ...I'll take the 'wait and see' position.

edit: I do see that our respective nautical experience has been under different conditions in different locales and might serve to mitigate circumstances observed.

seer

[cat man do]

They never did say how much the boat actually cost them before it's conversion

No they didnt, but seeing as they planned on an ALL UP COST of $150k, it would have been cheap

Fishing boats were available. Bass Strait boats were proven. We believed we could convert one for an all up finished cost of $(AUD)150,000

The boat I took to Vanuatu in the pic cost $42,000 and while looking a bit untidy, mechanicaly, electonically and hull wise was very sound.

Dave

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Seeratlas

Fair enough, I just prefer hearing first hand experience rather than the heady smell of someone else's cork.

I kept loose tabs on fuel usage on the schionning 42 I followed up the coast in my sailing cat and the boat I delivered to Vanuatu in the pic did use a smidge over 1 litre/nm for the trip.

So, with two engines running you're going to better the fuel consumption of a single engined boat?

That'd be two engines totaling 130hp and 6.6 litres displacement on a boat weighing 8500kg max

Compared to a 127hp motor with 10.5 litres displacement pushing a boat weight 32000kg.

I think I'll use about the same, but do it faster.

If you're only going to run one, are you raising the other out of the water? If not, what about the drag of the dead prop?

shaft in full length keel installation so I wont be raising anything, BUT how many saiboats are out there with a fixed 3 blade prop and how much drag do they have?

There has been discussion on the difference between fixing or freewheeling props while sailing and while it will knock a bit off for sail, it may not be as noticable in a powered situation

Is single engine propulsion "20 feet apart" not going to require a bit of rudder to maintain a straight course? And doesn't the deflection of water by the rudder to compensate for an off axis "push" use up energy? and induce drag?

Again it works on other similar boats, some sailing cats only have one diesel in one hull and manage fine, having full length keels will make her track even better.

A dirty bum will affect drag more than a bit of rudder I would think.

I did in my own humble way, actually manage to find a number of instances where the ability to effectively maneuver at low speed was quite useful..but hey, I'm probably the only one, right?

yeah, I've done my fair share of coastal and offshore miles over the last 25 years on my own vessels and deliveries as well and always found the cats to be more manouverable in close quarters as they can spin on their own length.

Over here we have big 100ft plus high powered passenger cats and they seem to get into very tight places just fine, as do the multi-tude of privately owned twin engined sailing cats.

And as for the vastly superior maneuvering ability of lightweight cats...well...I've seen some amazing cat dancing antics in stiff winds in a crowded anchorage..light displacement cats DO after all sail very well sideways to a good breeze, even if they don't have any sails. Just for fun, take a look at the scheduling of large boat shows near you. Try to get out there a few days in advance and watch em bring the boats in. If you get lucky and it occurs on a day with a nice breeze, well, nothing like a good cat fight

Well they move DIFFERENTLY thats for sure and I always have taken that into account when anchoring. Unfortunately others anchoring near me dont.

And it would be unseaman like and irresponsible to bring your boat into a tight situation on an overly windy day would'nt it ? Especially if you felt you may have windage/manouverability issues.

All depends on how well you know your boat I suppose.

Now, like I said, first hand knowledge trumps in my book, and my book is not entirely, 'thin'. I'll be interested in hearing about your results when this boat of yours hits the water. In the meantime you're simply talking about something you've never experienced and have not done. Not to say it can't happen as you predict...but ...I'll take the 'wait and see' position

.

Again wild assumptions on your part, how would you know what I have done or what boats I have been on.

You are also ignoring the boats that are out there right now doing what YOU feel can't be done.

I suppose those owners with boats that are out there doing it are just liars

Dave