Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[beiland]

The second Hong Kong 40 Powersailer has been launched a few days ago, and there are updated photos on that referenced webpage.

The builder sent along this note,
"Yesterday they were sailing to Kho Chang with 6.9 knts speed with only one sail. Top speed is 9.5 knts with 2 x 50 hp"

[pathlesschosen]

Settingsail 2009

As several folks in this forum I am where you where a couple years ago, working my way through a checklist to determine which cat to purchase. If you could start over which cats would make your final list?

[Jimbo485]

Catana, Outremer, Chris White, Kelsall.

[imagine2frolic]

The other day we went for a sail, and I was explaining to my wife. How I would love a forward cockpit. I would still want all lines run to the rear cockpit though. I also believe the Chris White cat flipped, because they hesitated opening the front door, but that's just an opinion........i2f

[Factor]

Originally Posted by pathlesschosen

Settingsail 2009

As several folks in this forum I am where you where a couple years ago, working my way through a checklist to determine which cat to purchase. If you could start over which cats would make your final list?

In no particular order

Outremer, Chris White, Kurt Hughes, Tony Grainger & Seawind (of course)

And I would really like to have a look at a Maine Cat 41

[beiland]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

The other day we went for a sail, and I was explaining to my wife. How I would love a forward cockpit. I would still want all lines run to the rear cockpit though. I also believe the Chris White cat flipped, because they hesitated opening the front door, but that's just an opinion........i2f

Let me clarify right up front that I am not a fan of them. I've only really sailed on one for a short period in the Chesapeake Bay. My friend's:
http://www.goldcoastyachts.com/yacht...Shearwater.pdf


But here is one report I saved:
"Here's a long story from friends who sailed one in S.Africa. Sort of contradicts what some have said:

Meanwhile I thought you might be interested to see the impressions of our trip aboard the Chris White Atlantic 55, which we wrote at the time to a friend who had lots of questions.................

Dear Rui,
Our trip round to Knysna aboard Segue was the most enormous fun and a good learning experience for both of us. To answer your specific questions first:

No, there was no bridge deck slamming at all. We actually never had more than 18 kts of wind, but we did go 35 miles off the coast where there was 4 kts of Agulhas current and quite large and confused cross swells.

The forward cockpit was supremely ergonomic for secure sail handling; you hardly ever needed to go up on deck. It also had very good visibility ahead -but very difficult visibility astern, which made it difficult when manouevring in harbour etc. The cockpit was pleasant and comfortable to sit in in fine weather. However it had no protection from the sun and it would be difficult to rig a bimini or spray dodger. The real negative side is that it gives NO protection from wind, spray, or even heavy seas when the going gets rough.

Also the big front door, opening from the deck saloon/wheelhouse into the forward cockpit, can potentially let a lot of water into the saloon if you open it at the wrong moment in heavy weather - and you sometimes have to do that to do things in the cockpit. On their trip down from Maputo in gale force winds Malcolm had a big sea sweep into the saloon through this door - it soaked everything; wrote off the stereo etc. which was opposite the door(but not the nav instruments which were round the corner); and lots of water flooded down the steps into the hulls.

There was a lot of mopping up to do. Obviously this is undesirable and even potentially dangerous. On balance, we would not choose a cockpit forward, and especially not a big forward opening door. Also - the cockpit position just did not FEEL right. We would rather have been protected behind the deck saloon - although I know a lot of cats have poor visibility from here.

The inside steering and navigation position was just excellent, with really good 360degree visibility and super comfort and protection. You could even keep a good lookout while sitting down to a 3 course meal round the saloon table!

The boat sailed really well - 12kts to windward in 15kts of true wind, and 8kts downwind in 11-12 kts true under twin headsails alone. Even better with the enormous asymmetrical set. It didn't feel as fast as it actually was - there was no drama or fuss. The sail handling was much easier than we expected, although you had to be careful to think through what you were doing, because the loads on such a big rig are enormous.

A smaller version would be altogether better for short handed cruising, I think. We are really convinced about the value of a high bridgedeck and long waterline, and we like the sheltered pilothouse/steering position. However we don't think we would choose the Atlantic 42 because of the exposed forward cockpit. That boat has no after deck behind the saloon at all. I think charterers, for example, would want a more protected position to lounge/sunbathe/sit in the shade"

[beiland]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

...I also believe the Chris White cat flipped, because they hesitated opening the front door, but that's just an opinion........i2f

What we can learn from Anna's Capsize

excerpt....
Then there is the dangerous squall. These are the ones that don't look that bad. There may be a large rain shield, it may not look too dark and or ominous, but within the squall, behind the first band of rain, lurk very strong winds. These are the squalls that can really bite. Only 2 weeks ago, as Kate and I sailed Javelin south along the Windward Islands in the Caribbean, a squall of this type hit us hard. There was a tropical wave passing through which was in the process of turning into a tropical storm, and atmospheric conditions were quite unstable with overcast skies and frequent squalls. It had been blowing 18-20 knots and we had a single reef in the main and the full self tacking staysail. We were sailing at a true wind angle of 50 degrees or so at about 9 knots. The squall looked like the others more or less, though I was concerned that its movement seemed different. In any case, a few minutes after the initial wind gust and rain, the wind really cranked up and headed us. Then it increased again and headed us more. There was way too much wind for the sail we carried, so I luffed up enough to depower Javelin, trying to walk the fine line between flogging the sails violently and keeping our boat speed down below 12 kts. It was exciting, too exciting, and when it did not let up after a few minutes we dropped the mainsail entirely. If truth be told, the whole event left me pretty rattled. We experienced an increase from 20 to 45 kts of wind in a fraction of a minute along with a 90 degree wind shift. I did not expect that at all. And that's the lesson. Sometimes a squall will dish out something that you don't expect and are not prepared for. It may only be one out of 50 or 100 squalls that are truly dangerous but you don't know and can never be sure which ones they are.

The report from Anna was the squall did not look any different than the others. But the last wind reading they noticed was 62 knots. That's a lot of wind. And they had the same sail up as Javelin did in the squall I just mentioned, a single reefed main and the full self tacking jib. Keep in mind that power in the wind increases as the square of the velocity. Doubling the velocity from 20 to 40 kts increases the pressure on the sails by FOUR times. Tripling the wind velocity from 20 to 60 kts increases the wind pressure by NINE times.

Reefing not only reduces the sail area but removes sail area from up high where the wind pressure exerts the most leverage trying to turn the boat over. The typical catamaran mainsail is large with a very rounded roach that increases the sail area near the top of the sail where it exerts the most heeling force. The combination of both reducing the sail area and reducing its height by reefing has a dramatic effect on stability, allowing the boat to stand up to much stronger gusts.

http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/news/anna_capsize/lessons_learned.shtml

Press Chris White Designs High Performance Cruising Catamarans

*************************************************

[beiland]

Atlantic 57 Cat Capsize recently

Originally Posted by RHough
...Most sailors with a few years of experience don't think a full battened main is beastly in the least. They are very well mannered. If a dog won't come when called and sit on command, someone needs to spend more time training. "Blows up quickly" does not happen. If the forecast for 12 hours is not known, what is the boat doing at sea? Why did it leave port with a slide system that is not reliable? Jiffy lines hung up on battens? Why are the reef lines slack enough to allow that? Was the halyard dropped before the slab reef lines were free and under tension? How many times was the reefing drill practiced?

I don't know what seas you sail in, but to say these conditions can not arise suddenly is just begging for interpetation. I've personally been off Hatteras sailing at night when the wind went from 10 knots to something over 30 in a matter of less the 1 minute....lets see triple the wind speed, square that figure for the wind pressure (6 times). On one other occassion it went from 10-15 knots to something over 60-70 in a matter of minutes.

More recently there was a situation where an Atlantic 57 catamaran with two experienced owners onboard capsized in the Pacific due to a violent 60+ knot squall. Here is an interesting website reference and analysis:
Capsize of Anna - a Chris White Atlantic 57

....just a couple of excerpts:

...from the designer;
"looked like the others more or less, though I was concerned that its movement seemed different. In any case, a few minutes after the initial wind gust and rain, the wind really cranked up and headed us. Then it increased again and headed us more. There was way too much wind for the sail we carried, so I luffed up enough to depower Javelin, trying to walk the fine line between flogging the sails violently and keeping our boat speed down below 12 kts. It was exciting, too exciting, and when it did not let up after a few minutes we dropped the mainsail entirely. If truth be told, the whole event left me pretty rattled. We experienced an increase from 20 to 45 kts of wind in a fraction of a minute along with a 90 degree wind shift. I did not expect that at all. And that's the lesson. Sometimes a squall will dish out something that you don't expect and are not prepared for. It may only be one out of 50 or 100 squalls that are truly dangerous but you don't know and can never be sure which ones they are."

...from the owners of the Atlantic 57;
"I find that downwind in squally conditions a very deeply reefed main and a large light sail forward that can be completely eased off in an instant makes me more comfortable. Sails behind the mast are difficult to handle and impossible to depower quickly with the apparent wind aft of the beam."

The point is that these BIG wind conditions can pop up, and very often a cruising sailor will just opt for turning off the wind and running with it. But then that mainsail is pinned against the mast and rigging, and it gets real difficult to drag it down into a reefed position...particularly a full-battened mainsail. All the while that mainsail is driving your bows down. Personnally if I am shorthanded I'd just as soon be without that tall full-battened mainsail in these situations.

I've not done a similar calculation as Chris did on the overturning moment forces involved with this sail combo they were flying in those conditions, but I venture to guess this single-masted ketch rig could have been carrying more sail area and not capsized in those same conditions....25% shorter in height

[boborama]

Sail a mono for the gusts, sail a multi for steady breeze, i.e., undersail her.

Makes sense?

[daddle]

Originally Posted by boborama

Sail a mono for the gusts, sail a multi for steady breeze, i.e., undersail her.

Makes sense?

No. You maybe meant trim a monohull for the lulls, trim a multi for the gusts?

[boborama]

Originally Posted by daddle

No. You maybe meant trim a monohull for the lulls, trim a multi for the gusts?

I think we're saying the same thing. A mono will roll with a gust, so, sail on, go for it. A multi needs more attention in gusts, so trim the sail back for the lowest wind you are encountering. Reef early.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Kiwi.

Mike, your point is a good one; the real issue is to never be too far from the sheets. I've been reading the thread on Lagoon 420 v 440 and I've been shocked at people who think they are in control of a sailing vessel, just because they can steer it. If you can't adjust or release the main and jib sheets within a couple of steps or seconds you're not in control, you're a passenger. Any fly bridge catamaran under sail, being steered from the main saloon, is definitely not under control.

Your point is a good one too Kiwi, although it perhaps needs some clarification as applied to the Lagoon 440. Although definitely a flybridge cat (a 'feature' we approached with reluctance at first, but now absolutely embrace!) the L440 also takes the main sheet into the cockpit below the bridge. So there is, even when steering from the main saloon, the ability to 'dump' the main "within a couple of steps or seconds".

Now with >14000nm sailing our L440, we do not hesitate at all in describing her as a very safe and comfortable Circumnavigating Cat.

[dirkdig]

Over 400 Lagoon 440 around the world.
Number of Lagoon 440's upside down = 0.
there's the real stats.
the 440 are underpowered for the size of the boat and therefore have a saftey margin built in to a point.
The numbers and history tell the story here.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by boborama

I think we're saying the same thing. A mono will roll with a gust, so, sail on, go for it. A multi needs more attention in gusts, so trim the sail back for the lowest wind you are encountering. Reef early.

Trim the sail for the HIGHEST wind you are encountering.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by beiland

The point is that these BIG wind conditions can pop up, and very often a cruising sailor will just opt for turning off the wind and running with it. But then that mainsail is pinned against the mast and rigging, and it gets real difficult to drag it down into a reefed position...particularly a full-battened mainsail. All the while that mainsail is driving your bows down. Personnally if I am shorthanded I'd just as soon be without that tall full-battened mainsail in these situations.

I have no difficulty at all reefing my full battened main while running. I simply centre the traveller, sheet in, (as though preparing to gybe) then winch in reefing lines while easing the halyard. Keeps the battens clear of the shrouds, and reefing is easy.