Carbon mast for trimaran

[spannerhead]

I'm looking for a carbon 16m mast. I have had some wildly different quotes from some of the big euro and usa manufacturers. 30k difference. Seems wild. Wondering if anyone can recommend a company?

[Chotu]

that’s because we are currently in a climate where companies are literally just seeing what they can get away with. Has nothing to do with the cost of materials or labor. They are looking for suckers.

In order to get a quote for my mast section, they would not just take the dimensions of the mast needed and give a quote. They demanded a picture of the boat.

Since my boat looks pretty fancy in pictures, they thought I was loaded. So they gave me the highest possible quote.

That was US Spars.

Needless to say I will never buy anything from them. I think that’s what you ran into also.

[Boatguy30]

Originally Posted by Chotu

that’s because we are currently in a climate where companies are literally just seeing what they can get away with. Has nothing to do with the cost of materials or labor. They are looking for suckers.

In order to get a quote for my mast section, they would not just take the dimensions of the mast needed and give a quote. They demanded a picture of the boat.

Since my boat looks pretty fancy in pictures, they thought I was loaded. So they gave me the highest possible quote.

That was US Spars.

Needless to say I will never buy anything from them. I think that’s what you ran into also.

I'll ask when I get back to Gainesville how much extra they added. That request was no doubt from the French engineers and had nothing to do with price.

[spannerhead]

Hi Chotu

In my case we are talking about an old tri. Hardly a big $ yacht. I understand your frustration , its a sad reflection of the industry. Did you find a carbon mast ?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by spannerhead

Hi Chotu

In my case we are talking about an old tri. Hardly a big $ yacht. I understand your frustration , its a sad reflection of the industry. Did you find a carbon mast ?

Yes. I understand the boat you are trying to get the mast for. I’m just saying this might be part of the reason you are running into so many different prices. I think they are just trying to see how much they can get at this point. It is a strange environment we are in.

And actually, when I was looking around for a used mast, I did find a carbon mast. Used. In excellent shape. I was thinking about using it for my own boat, but there was no way for me to translate the specifications I had in aluminum over to a Carbon spar.

I have no idea if it would match for you, but it was located in Clearwater Florida. I don’t know where you are either.

[PineyWoodsPete]

About 25 years ago we met a couple in Acapulco on the 40' tri "Motu" they completed. They built a wingmast, with a chord of about 16", from Home Depot 1/8" thick "doorskins" epoxied in staggered overlaps over a frame - tapered at the top and supported on a trailer hitch ~2" ball in socket, with steering arms at the base.

We sailed along with them for almost three years on our FP Antigua 37, including a tough 2-day bash through the Papagallo winds toward Costa Rica after being holed-up in the Nicaraguan port of Corinto for a week and decided to "go for it". Several 40'+ mono's left at the same time, but turned back. While we basically rode over the wave-tops, they plunged through the short, steep head seas, making little progress on a close reach in the 20kn and gusting winds. No mast problems on the tri...

[zstine]

You could DIY build your own for a fraction of the price. Mike Waters sells detailed instructions. His off-the-shelf design manual ($179) only covers masts to 10m, but I'm sure he can help you with a larger mast for a few extra $$.

https://smalltridesign.com/Carbon-Fiber-Mast.html

[spannerhead]

Originally Posted by zstine

You could DIY build your own for a fraction of the price. Mike Waters sells detailed instructions. His off-the-shelf design manual ($179) only covers masts to 10m, but I'm sure he can help you with a larger mast for a few extra $$.

https://smalltridesign.com/Carbon-Fiber-Mast.html

Thx , have sent him an email. Compared to the quotes I have had its certainly a cheaper option.

[billgewater]

My observations. Not based on great experience but from comments from riggers, multihull builders and multihull owners. We were considering CF mast/booms/fore beam etc., when we were talking with a catamaran designer some years ago. He pointed out repeatedly that the cost of CF would be much better utilized if spent elsewhere. On most catamarans, the fore beam is usually a uniform cross section alloy piece. It is reasonably easy to design and then manufacture such a uniform structure using CF. Not so for an elliptical tapered section like a mast. We saw a few catamaran builders in Western Australia making their own CF fore beams, but no masts.

You are very unlikely to find any standard CF mast sections because to capitalize on the advantages they need to be engineered for the particular boat and rig. (e.g. what extra layup is needed at spreader points or at the gooseneck.)

Weight savings above deck can be achieved faster and at much less expense by using Dyneema rigging etc. Mast weight on a multihull and in particular a wide beamed trimaran has less relevance than on a monohull, and consequently, CF masts are a rarity, even on racing monos. Robertson and Crain (SA) certainly did not advocate CF masts when we had discussions with them.

In our marina (tropical Australia) a very large catamaran with a full carbon fiber mast section took a lightening hit. CF has not got the conductivity of aluminium (aluminum for Americans) and the mast was a write off. A very expensive write off. What happened was that where metal fittings such a stays etc. and wiring left the mast, the CF in the regions was internally damaged due to the enormous local currents and/or heating. The engineers involved could not determine the limits to the damaged areas or assessed the damaged areas as being too large to resurrect. I understand that the catamaran now has an alloy mast.
Lightening strikes are bad enough causing all sorts of instrument losses and other problems but I have never seen an alloy mast that needed replacing after a strike. My own boat has taken one lightening strike without too many problems.
Rigging is a very specialized part of any sailing boat and I would be talking to the original designer. The designer may have information about other attempts at your project and his/her advice would be specific to your trimaran.
You may be creating greater problems than the advantages imagined.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by billgewater

he regions was internally damaged due to the enormous local currents and/or heating. The engineers involved could not determine the limits to the damaged areas or assessed the damaged areas as being too large to resurrect. I understand that the catamaran now has an alloy mast.

What if dyneema rigging then? Would it protect the carbon mast from this strike?

I think you need to build the carbon mast a bit heavier for cruising than racing to ensure it does not fatigue.

Consider a titanium mast?

[catsketcher]

I would not agree that weight in the mast matters less in a multi. Whilst it is true that multis do not heel, they certainly do pitch and have far less pitch resistance than a big bummed mono. Pitch reduction is helped massively by reducing mast weight, so if you could reduce rig weight by getting a lighter mast it would be great for the ride of the boat.

I was involved in the construction of a cedar/carbon wing mast. After it was built it was heavier than an alloy mast. So I would be wary of making your own wing mast to reduce weight. The mast I knew was vac bagged to reduce weight but it came out a bit heavier than we thought it would.

I have made a few composite tubes in my time and find them problematic. Wrapping the tubes tight makes the inner laminates crumple a bit. Then there is the pain of removing the mandrel - hard! I would never make a big tube myself - I say too many rude words making small ones.

With the cost of ally compared to carbon tubes as an analogue I do not think it would be worth the money to go carbon yet. Build the boat a bit longer, buy a watermaker, get a longer prodder (maybe carbon) and get a bigger screecher, get a masthead screecher and dux backstays for really light winds, send stuff home more often, or go carbon or other lightweight fabric for the sails. Cheaper and probably just as effective.

I would love to find some broken carbon masts so that I could cut them up for boat projects, but I can't stomach the cost of the real thing for the mast.

[spannerhead]

Billgewater you make some good points. I have read mixed opinions regarding CF and lightning strikes. Certainly true that lightning damage would be hard to analyse. I got hit on a wooden yacht ( wood mast ) and we had all the electronics fried. And yes it would need to be designed for my application , hence some of the quotes I have had. One was $150 to 200 AU. Rarity ? I know of many yachts with CF mast's , weight saving on any multihull is advantages . Cost v advantage , I'm still trying to decide.

Building one, with help might be an option.Buying one seems unlikely based quotes so far.

[spannerhead]

Yes Catsketcher
I think your right about where to spend the money. The CF mast seems to be too much $ at the moment . I agree with all your suggestions. I planed on all those upgrades with the new mast . So just eliminate the CF mast.

[Sand crab]

There was a guy in the Florida Keys that built 2 piece CF masts. They had a lip on the inside so they could be bonded together. The beauty of this was there was no complicated wrapping of a mandrel.

[pbmaise]

I am pretty sure you will be able to pickup a used carbon fiber mast built for one of these big new racing vessels and then have it cut down to size. It may require stomping around some of the more expensive yards in New Zealand and Australia.

A new supplier local that can do this is
https://www.nzrigging.com/

You also might work with Rapido in Vietnam. They have a supplier for their trimarans and may be willing to sell a rig only. Given the vessel location it would be really easy to pop over to Vietnam and have them install it for you.

Now that a certain person we will not name is no longer at Tasker in Phuket you might also give them a shout. Although most of what I remember on their inventory was all profiles in Al.

Call also Boat Lagoon in Phuket. The rigger who works out of the shop there likely has a line to a big used carbon fiber mast.

Of these options I gave you, my favorite is to pop on a plane go meet the team at Rapido and tell them you want one of their rigs. Likely they will say yes if you are there in person and likely they will say no if you just send them an email.

https://southernspars.com/portfolio/rapido-60/

The mast from the Rapido 40 is the right one for your vessel. https://rapidotrimarans.com/rapido-40

Based on Southern Spars making the mast for the 60 it is logical they make the carbon mast for the 40 too.

It is slightly taller than what you asked for. Just ask the sails to be made to suit your vessel.