Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

Writing of catamarans as being unsafe because of a capsize on an Iroquois would be akin to calling all automobiles unsafe because you rolled a Jeep with a lift kit, which is a well known unstable vehicle.

And however the percentage of Iroquois that have capsized, regarding its overall number is much smaller than the percentage of Atlantic cats that have capsized (regarding their number).

[SV DestinyAscen]

Originally Posted by Polux

And however the percentage of Iroquois that have capsized, regarding its overall number is much smaller than the percentage of Atlantic cats that have capsized (regarding their number).

Got no dog in this fight but I'm sure more Open 60 and 40s by % have lost their rigs than any hobie cats or any entry level Hanse, Bavaria, benneteau or jenneau. Doesn't really address the point...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen

Got no dog in this fight but I'm sure more Open 60 and 40s by % have lost their rigs than any hobie cats or any entry level Hanse, Bavaria, benneteau or jenneau. Doesn't really address the point...

Cannot see your point. Atlantic cats and Iroquois are both cruising cats, one mainstream the other a performance cat.

Your example regards to racing boats versus cruising boats. The Iroquois is not a racing cat but an old mainstream cat, not a light performance one but one with a low CG, a low windage and relatively heavy:

At least one has circumnavigated.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Polux

Cannot see your point. Atlantic cats and Iroquois are both cruising cats, one mainstream the other a performance cat.

Your example regards to racing boats versus cruising boats. Do you have thought that a Iroquois was a racing cat? This is a Iroquois, an old cat:

At least one has circumnavigated.

During its time the Iroquois was considered a performance cat. The majority of Iroquois that flipped were the Mk1 model. They did a slight change in hull design and rig height to make the Mk11 a little more stable.


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[catsketcher]

Experience in extreme heavy weather does not mean you won't feel safe on a cat.

Friends of ours were in the 1994 Queens Birthday Bomb storm. One of the most vicious storms in the last 30 years in our part of the world. They made it through on their mono - a 13m light displacement boat which they subsequently sailed around the world. They had first hand experience of some of the worst recorded storms we have seen.

And they bought a cat for their next boat. Then they built a bigger cat, in which they sail with their daughter, and they race their boat too. Huge experience and happy to have a catamaran. Sailing it right now down into Bass Strait. Some people go to monos from cats. We can't make generalisations from one person's experience.

As to the Atlantics being unsafe because of statistics - it is a small sample size! Statistics is a hard area to understand, that is why you can do years of study at university in the area. That is why proper scientific studies have large sample sizes and disinterested observers. Humans are trained to find patterns, it helps us survive but we sometimes find patterns that don't exist. What is the chance of you parking your car next to another car that has the number plate AAA 111? It is actually the same as parking next to any random number plate, say BDE 285. It is just we get interested when we can detect something remarkable but amazingly remote chances occur all the time.

If I flip my cat is it then 100% of a design failure because all of the designs (it is a custom Chamberlin) have flipped? No. Or is it a perfectly safe design right now because I have not gotten into trouble? . Is it safer than every Lagoon 400, a few of them have come into trouble but no Chamberlin 11.6s have flipped, sunk etc. Be careful making patterns with small sample sizes. In BOTH Atlantic capsizes the boat was reefed and had a huge amount of reserve stability. Something interesting is happening but saying "That boat is just unsafe" without understanding the physics of capsizing a boat, that should be able to take over 60 knots reefed, is not going to advance cat design, sailing and understanding one inch.

The same about the sailing techniques. I can't understand how people could say the Leopard crew did anything out of the ordinary. I often leave the cockpit to grab a bite, look at the chart, get a drink, check around the deck, look at a whale, whatever. It is not bad seamanship to leave the helm in reasonable conditions. You have to do this if there are two of you sailing. It's normal. The guys were preparing dinner and some people say they should have seen the weather coming - in the southern hemisphere at least we often have dinner when it is dark. I guess the Leopard crew should all be wearing night vision goggles.

In many ways this forum has me in a bit of time warp. The attitudes of a minority of mono correspondents reminds me of the bad old days of the 80s when my dinghy sailing and mono racing friends would not sail my trimaran with me. There was a lot of defensive trash talking those days. When I speak to people actually out cruising the East Coast of Australia they are universally polite about the choices other sailors make. They see cats and monos of all sizes being good cruising boats. I see Hans Christians, Swans, Beneteaus, Perrys, Farrs, Sayers, Adams, Radfords and Tahiti ketches all being good cruising boats. I may not want one as my ideal boat right now but I don't think someone is stupid because they made a different choice from me. My brother is thinking of a Lidgard 40 or an S and S 36 as his next boat. I look forward to sailing it with him.

I also can't say a boat is unsafe because it doesn't do something my boat does do. My boat can get away from a storm by going up a shallow mangrove creek. Yours can't, well you will have to do something different - not worse, just different.

Diversity is a good thing. Being open minded is good too.

[Factor]

You will be in trouble if you continue to bring logic and fact into the discussion

[44'cruisingcat]

A mono sinks in the ARC - 60 or so posts. A cat capsizes, 360 posts (~200 of them by pollux) and counting...

[Training Wheels]

^^^ Thank you, well done!

[UpOnStands]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

My boat can get away from a storm by going up a shallow mangrove creek. Yours can't, --

not on purpose at least

[admiralslater]

Originally Posted by Polux

Cannot see your point. Atlantic cats and Iroquois are both cruising cats, one mainstream the other a performance cat.

Your example regards to racing boats versus cruising boats. The Iroquois is not a racing cat but an old mainstream cat, not a light performance one but one with a low CG, a low windage and relatively heavy:

At least one has circumnavigated.

On a different note . I must say that this design has held up very well. What a pretty boat.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

A mono sinks in the ARC - 60 or so posts. A cat capsizes, 360 posts (~200 of them by pollux) and counting...

Tru, dat!

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

A mono sinks in the ARC - 60 or so posts. A cat capsizes, 360 posts (~200 of them by pollux) and counting...

I will make an exception and I will make a post without content or substance, just to correct you. I made on this thread less than 1/4 of the posts that you attribute to me. Keep counting but please try to be accurate.

[PhiSig1071]

An upside-down cat is safer than a mono on the bottom..........

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

An upside-down cat is safer than a mono on the bottom..........

Personally I wouldn't want to be in either, Cats have their issues and monos have theirs, some sailors prefer to sail monos, others prefer to sail Cats. Neither is better than the other, they are just different, kinda like women. Choose your own poison and fall in love with it but don't expect to sell your choice to everyone else, we are sailors not religious zealots.

[Sos]

Our house (about half a mile from the sea) was hit by a small tornado. We just heard a roar above the normal wind and rain and just had time to look behind the bedroom window curtain. All I saw was a complete white out. Then ran for the back room. Lasted a matter of seconds but stripped half the roof and trashed the car. This was in the UK so very rare and relatively small.

Point is I can't imagine being anywhere on a boat and being able to do anything to affect the outcome. They were probably safer being inside since I doubt if they were hooked on in the cockpit.

Most things you can plan for but there are some when it is just the wrong place at the wrong time.