Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

[Steadman Uhlich]

SNOWPETREL,
Thanks for adding your photos and experience to the discussion.

What a great looking boat, and such a cool childhood sailing experience! WOW!

The many photos are very nice to see.

[seadago]

Hi everyone

This is a good thread. I am in the process of choosing a self steering system for my boat. I have a Freedom 30 cat ketch (Hoyt design) with wheel steering. This means that I not only have a mizzen with a boom that overhangs the transom by over a foot, but I also have a rather large barn door rudder hanging from the transom.
This significantly limits my options:

1) Expert consensus gathered thus far is that any system but a servo-pendulum will not be strong enough to overcome the resistance/fiction on the steering wheel gears.

2) whatever I put on the transom needs to be mounted considerably off the centre line. If closer to the centre line, it needs to sit so far aft -to avoid the rudder radius- as to be unreachable from the cockpit.

Seems a no-win situation and I am currently stuck. I would greatly appreciate input from owners with boats of similar configuration.

Cheers
Rafael

[sailpower]

A few from the Scanmar website.

Scroll down the links for photos and owner comments.

Scanmar International

Scanmar International

Scanmar International

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by seadago

Hi everyone

This is a good thread. I am in the process of choosing a self steering system for my boat. I have a Freedom 30 cat ketch (Hoyt design) with wheel steering. This means that I not only have a mizzen with a boom that overhangs the transom by over a foot, but I also have a rather large barn door rudder hanging from the transom.
This significantly limits my options:

1) Expert consensus gathered thus far is that any system but a servo-pendulum will not be strong enough to overcome the resistance/fiction on the steering wheel gears.

2) whatever I put on the transom needs to be mounted considerably off the centre line. If closer to the centre line, it needs to sit so far aft -to avoid the rudder radius- as to be unreachable from the cockpit.

Seems a no-win situation and I am currently stuck. I would greatly appreciate input from owners with boats of similar configuration.

Cheers
Rafael

Most of the modern servo pendulum gears can be adjusted remotely via ropes, so mounting a vane aft of the rudder would still be feasible, and it would give some clearance from the overhanging boom. Only problem would be changing or removing vanes, but this is done less much less frequently than course changes.

Are you planning on a fair bit of offshore sailing with the boat? As for coastal styff a fair arguement can be made for just having an autopilot in your case.

A hydrovane might work, if offset, but the boom overhang would probably be a problem. But sails can be recut and booms shortened if need be.

There are home made solutions. Have a look at the neat aux rudder setup on the tiny core sound cat ketch Carlita https://youtu.be/BmvGynZa7F0 prehaps offset twin rudders?

[seadago]

Hi Snowpetrel

Thanks for your comments. Much appreciated.

Answer is yes. The purpose of installing a windvane is to do bluewater sailing in moderate steady winds. I have an old Autopilot that would do the job in light airs for limited time (without draining my batteries).

Safe accessibility would be a very good thing to have; not necessarily for course corrections which -as you say- can mostly be done with control lines, but for any repair, adjustment, or fiddling around while under way. That without triggering a MOB drill!!

If Mohammed doesn't go to the mountain.... Yep, I thought of it (offset twin rudders), but I'm very reluctant at this stage to modify the basic geometry of the boat. She's a well mannered lady, and with balanced sails, sensitive and light on the wheel. Would rather not compromise that.

The setup on Carlita is elegant! May be a solution, albeit completely bespoke

Thanks again
Rafa

[atmartin]

Wish I had a picture from the side, but here's our setup. The boom pretty much ends at the sheet.

Our mizzen originally overhung the transom, so I took 18" off the boom and had a fully battened, big roach mizzen made so we didn't lose sail area.

When going deep downwind, we usually put the mizzen away and prevent it out to one side. If we have the airvane turned around for downwind and jibe, the mizzen strikes the airvane on its way over, but it's never been a problem. Upwind, the mizzen boom ends a few inches ahead of the airvane.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by seadago

Hi Snowpetrel

Thanks for your comments. Much appreciated.

Answer is yes. The purpose of installing a windvane is to do bluewater sailing in moderate steady winds. I have an old Autopilot that would do the job in light airs for limited time (without draining my batteries).

Safe accessibility would be a very good thing to have; not necessarily for course corrections which -as you say- can mostly be done with control lines, but for any repair, adjustment, or fiddling around while under way. That without triggering a MOB drill!!

If Mohammed doesn't go to the mountain.... Yep, I thought of it (offset twin rudders), but I'm very reluctant at this stage to modify the basic geometry of the boat. She's a well mannered lady, and with balanced sails, sensitive and light on the wheel. Would rather not compromise that.

The setup on Carlita is elegant! May be a solution, albeit completely bespoke

Thanks again
Rafa

Hi Rafa, just looked up the freedom 30. It sure is a big barn door of a rudder! But a lovely and unique boat.

Maybe something like the sailomat 800 with an aft angled shaft would get the shaft clear of the rudder and keep the top close enough to easily reach. The windpilot has a smaller sweepback angle but it may be enough.

Other options would be a pushpit and bumkin with slats on it to make accessing the vane safer. On one boat to repair the vane offshore we demounted the whole unit and took it below while offshore, and something like the modern aries liftup unit has a very well designed hinge and removal system that would pivot the head unit into the cockpit.

http://www.sailomat.com/sailomat800.php
http://www.ariesvane.com/liftupinstallation4.html

[seadago]

Hi Ben
That's the direction i'm heading. I've also been looking at the Hebridean.
Self-steering Servo-Pendulum Wind Vane Kit & Plans for DIY Kit for Sailors | www.windvaneselfsteering.co.uk
Also has a pendulum at a wide angle, so may clear the rudder without the vane being out of reach. This is a DIY job. Attractive... easy to fix/modify anywhere, comparatively light, and 1/3 of the overall build cost of the cheapest OTC product i've seen.
Thanks again boet.
I keep updates here on how I'm progressing.
Cheers
Rafa

[Snowpetrel]

^^ Rafa, those hebridian units look pretty neat, I had forgotten that they also have a good sweep angle. Keen to hear how it works out.

Another thought that would apply to any ketch is using a "roll" reef to lift the clew of the mizzen above the vane for manuvering. To do this you leave the tack and halyard alone but top up the boom and pull in the reef pendant.

In the old days this was used to stop the long booms dragging in the water, but the same technique would give more room fpr a tall windvane to clear with only a slight loss of performance.

[overboard]

We have an Alden designed Fuji45, a 1976 staysail clipper ketch. Because of her hydraulic steering system, we installed a Hydrovane windvane. We have sailed her with the windvane from Los Angeles to Panama back to Los Angeles, then San Diego to the South Pacific, currently moored in Fiji.

Yes, the mizzen goes aft the stern by about 9 to 12" depending on the lift of the boom. And it does fight for space with the miz. Everybody plays nicely or 45* back, but it is decision making time when the wind is further forward. The vane makes it impossible to sheet the mizz in as far as we'd like. It is easier to balance the boat with the mizzen sheeted correctly, so we occasionally take off the vane paddle to sail to weather the old fashioned way. But... we are so glad we installed the hard working wind steering machine. She is hardy crew an d we wont leave home without her. I will have to take a picture later. Caio

[seadago]

Originally Posted by overboard

We have an Alden designed Fuji45, a 1976 staysail clipper ketch. Because of her hydraulic steering system, we installed a Hydrovane windvane. We have sailed her with the windvane from Los Angeles to Panama back to Los Angeles, then San Diego to the South Pacific, currently moored in Fiji.

Hi
Thanks for your input. I eventually decanted for the Hebridean design. Will be installing and trialling in the next two week, so will record and post findings.
Thanks again.
Rafa

[seadago]

Done, at last!

This is The Hebridean (www.windvanesflsteering.co.uk)

I purchased the kit containing all metal pieces, licence to build, and blueprints for the timber. The timber itself I already had - Indian teak, though the design specs called for white oak - and I built it on my (domestic) workshop.

Build instructions are fairly clear, and it is not very difficult to build, but a good set of medium duty tools is required, as the build tolerances sometimes are less than 1 mm. I had to equip the workshop with several of such tools (mainly wood working stuff, vertical press drill, etc) specifically for this project. Lots and lots of patience and fiddling around required to get it working right though, particularly on adjusting the turret worm drive mechanism.

This is a servo wind vane; i.e. the vane itself picks the signal from the wind and transmits it to an oar trailing in the water. The oar picks up energy from the water flowing by it, amplifies the signal from the vane, and transmits it to a pendulum, which in turn turns the rudder through control lines.

The mounting frame supporting the vane on the transom is my own engineering, and it is not particularly elegant. In my defence, design options were constrained by the need to accommodate the turning rudder stem within it, and the fact that it is constructed strictly with standard OTS components available over the internet.

The philosophy of the whole project, both vane and mounting frame, was to have something that, in case of accidental breakage, or wear-and-tear, could be replaced with ease anywhere in the world, and with minimum access to tools and/or workshop. The only components which, if broken, needs to be replaced from origin (rather than fixed) are the black plastic bits in the adjusting mechanism of the vane’s turret. Everything else can made by cutting, bending, and drilling SS sheet material, and std size nuts and bolts

Now, the most difficult part starts. I’ll be sea-trialling this contraption over the next few weeks. Will report progress if of interest to others.

Cheers

Rafa

[Eleuthera 2014]

Hi Steady,

We have a ketch but no windvane. Don’t want one either.. too much faffing at least for us.

The boat is an electric gonzo so instead we have 2 autopilots: Ray 7000 on the helm and the second one is hydraulic, mounted directly on the rudder bellcrank.

Different strokes.... different folks!

Cheers

[akopac]

The are some picks of our Morgan West Indies 38 ketch Autohelm wind vane. The rudder with trim tab is off, but goes on the aluminum frame on the transom. The rudder trim tab is attached to the vane with stainless steel cables in tubes under way. Very very reliable. The boom clears everything on the davits.

[charliehows]

my ketch has a servo-pendulum to auxiliary rudder windvane which is used in conjunction with a locked main rudder. It mainly comes into use on the beam reach with all sails and downwind, either on the goosewing or with twin headsails, as the boat is pretty good at holding its course upwind. There arent any problems with wind shadowing because my aft deck is pretty clear - ie no davits or solar panels or whatever.