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ABK · 11-11-2011, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Yay -- another "Sailing for Dummies" fan!

I read that book right after I started sailing, and it educated me on something very important -- what it meant to have a "lee shore." So when I got caught in rough waters and my sailing companion wanted to take our partially disabled boat closer to shore, I knew that was a very bad choice and took it further out to sea until Sea Tow got there. By the time Sea Tow got there we were in a fair amount of trouble -- but we weren't near the lee shore in a rough surf.

You can't completely learn to sail from books, but books in addition to experience and lessons can be a really good thing.

__________________________________________________ ____
Thanks for your thumbs up post on Sailing for Dummies. I read in someones web page that he was afraid to read it. He has it posted with a lot of recommendations on books. When he did open it his remark that it was a great book with valuable information that was covered in it.

I found his web page a great source of information on books and experiences.

Our paths crossed as I had done a walk through tour of his new boat that was featured at the Annapolis Sailboat Show in 2011. He was in Europe and had not seen his boat since he visited the Jeanneau factory in France and watched it being built.

He then contacted me and and that's how I found his web page.

I have posted a link to it below if you care to take a look. His boat is a Jeanneau 57 named Zanshin.

Thanks,

ABK

apparition · 14-11-2011, 06:27

Some here have clued into the "definitive" answer to the question. While most production sailboats are not designed to be true ocean racers - even the ocean racers with their sturdy carbon fiber masts and high strength cockpitless hulls are no match for 75 foot towering tumblers. When the boat capsizes and the mast snaps, it doesn't matter whether you're on a "blue water" boat or not - it's rescue time. This underscores the reckless, ignorant, and arrogant behavior of some stunt people who think they can build a half million dollar "indestructible" yacht to send their 16 year old around the southern ocean on in the middle of winter so he/she can get a TV deal and a place in Guinness.

Abby Sunderland seeks cash to save her boat Wild Eyes from the Indian Ocean | Herald Sun

The reality is that Mother Nature has repeatedly demonstrated the capacity to reduce the most sea worthy boats to little more than flotsam. Yes, if Mother Nature allows, you can circumnavigate in a 35 foot Alberg or a Catalina lake boat without having to call the coast guard for a rescue. The only difference between those and a Hinckley Bermuda, Columbia 50, or fancy new Bennetteau is that you are only more likely to make the call in the smaller, more cheaply designed/built craft. So as some here have suggested, being blue water ready has as much to do with the skipper as it does the vessel under his control and in that sense, it's a bit of a misnomer.

Jimbo485 · 14-11-2011, 20:33

It seems that the crew and skipper generally, but not always, fail before the boat does. So shouldn't this question be redirected at the true weakest link?

Or do our collective human egos prevent us from doing so?

gjordan · 14-11-2011, 20:35

I must add my 2 cents worth to all of this. There has been lots of advice, both good and bad, and lots of pontificating about what is a good boat, but no one has said the obviouse. If a man is willing to spend half a million dollars on a boat , he should spend some money and go to a sailing school, or charter a similar size boat, and try to sleep going to weather in a chop or a decent blow. Learning that hand holds are far more important than fancy blue tile behind the cute little wood stove, or that having good sea berths makes or breaks a long passage. A good spray dodger is worth its weight in gold. These are just a few things that a yacht salesman wont tell you about. About 20 years ago I delivered a Tayana 47 from San Francisco to Oregon . It was brand new and beautiful. The salesman showed me the boat and all he could emphasize was the VCR player and the central heat. I asked where the manual bilge pump was and got a blank stare. I figured the boat out and had the good fortune to have a very good crew along. I usually sail with one crew, but took a second because he was good company and loved to sail. Leaving SF Bay the autopilot ripped off of the bulkhead before we cleared the Golden Gate. Being north bound it was mostly motor sailing and fairly easy. It got rolly the first night and this third of a million dollar boat did not have one good sea berth. I slept in the forward cabin and was OK with a sailbag keeping me from rolling.The crew traded the rear cabin with no lee clothes to keep them from rolling , and had a rough night. We had been checking the bilge every hour, and it had stayed dry. By the second day we only checked the bilge at the watch change. The second afternoon we changed watch and discovered water almost to the floorboards. We had been taking water over the deck, but nothing unusual.I went below and turned on the electric bilge pump, and tried to figure out where the water was coming from. The electric pump lasted about 5 minutes and packed up. It had no strum box. I headed the boat for a small cove about 10 miles back and started pumping with the hand pump ,which was located below the galley sole and was pumped from a very awkward sitting position. It lasted about 10 minutes and plugged up. I cleaned it out and pumped for a while longer and had to clean it again. An hour and a half later ,and several more cleanings we anchored with a dry bilge and no idea where the water came from. We had a hot meal and slept with an hourly watch on the bilge. In the morning we bucketed water onto the deck and discovered that on this very expensive boat , the anchor locker was not self bailing and the hatch on the foredeck didnt have any kind of seal on it. A liberal application of masking tape sealed the foredeck and we continued on our way. The point of this rambling is that the most expensive boats with the best advertising may be poorly thaught out and poorly assembled. Other than the terrible position of the manual bilge pump, the pumping problems were from massive amounts of sawdust in the bilge that no one had vacuemed out. At risk of offending some members, I would say that many Yacht salesmen are somewhat below the level of used car salesmen. At least used car salesmen know how to take a car on a trip whereas most Yacht salesmen dont know how to take a boat anywhere other than a demomstration sail on the bay. Just my 2 cents.____Grant.

webejammin · 15-11-2011, 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by gjordan

I must add my 2 cents worth to all of this. There has been lots of advice, both good and bad, and lots of pontificating about what is a good boat, but no one has said the obviouse. If a man is willing to spend half a million dollars on a boat , he should spend some money and go to a sailing school, or charter a similar size boat, and try to sleep going to weather in a chop or a decent blow. Learning that hand holds are far more important than fancy blue tile behind the cute little wood stove, or that having good sea berths makes or breaks a long passage. A good spray dodger is worth its weight in gold. These are just a few things that a yacht salesman wont tell you about. About 20 years ago I delivered a Tayana 47 from San Francisco to Oregon . It was brand new and beautiful. The salesman showed me the boat and all he could emphasize was the VCR player and the central heat. I asked where the manual bilge pump was and got a blank stare. I figured the boat out and had the good fortune to have a very good crew along. I usually sail with one crew, but took a second because he was good company and loved to sail. Leaving SF Bay the autopilot ripped off of the bulkhead before we cleared the Golden Gate. Being north bound it was mostly motor sailing and fairly easy. It got rolly the first night and this third of a million dollar boat did not have one good sea berth. I slept in the forward cabin and was OK with a sailbag keeping me from rolling.The crew traded the rear cabin with no lee clothes to keep them from rolling , and had a rough night. We had been checking the bilge every hour, and it had stayed dry. By the second day we only checked the bilge at the watch change. The second afternoon we changed watch and discovered water almost to the floorboards. We had been taking water over the deck, but nothing unusual.I went below and turned on the electric bilge pump, and tried to figure out where the water was coming from. The electric pump lasted about 5 minutes and packed up. It had no strum box. I headed the boat for a small cove about 10 miles back and started pumping with the hand pump ,which was located below the galley sole and was pumped from a very awkward sitting position. It lasted about 10 minutes and plugged up. I cleaned it out and pumped for a while longer and had to clean it again. An hour and a half later ,and several more cleanings we anchored with a dry bilge and no idea where the water came from. We had a hot meal and slept with an hourly watch on the bilge. In the morning we bucketed water onto the deck and discovered that on this very expensive boat , the anchor locker was not self bailing and the hatch on the foredeck didnt have any kind of seal on it. A liberal application of masking tape sealed the foredeck and we continued on our way. The point of this rambling is that the most expensive boats with the best advertising may be poorly thaught out and poorly assembled. Other than the terrible position of the manual bilge pump, the pumping problems were from massive amounts of sawdust in the bilge that no one had vacuemed out. At risk of offending some members, I would say that many Yacht salesmen are somewhat below the level of used car salesmen. At least used car salesmen know how to take a car on a trip whereas most Yacht salesmen dont know how to take a boat anywhere other than a demomstration sail on the bay. Just my 2 cents.____Grant.

Great story on "a good bluewater boat" is one you know everything about the boat and how to use duct tape.

apparition · 15-11-2011, 05:51

Great insightful post Grant and a pleasure to read!

sailorboy1 · 15-11-2011, 06:04

I always thought that Tayana's were accepted by the herd as "blue water". So should we now say based on this 1 story that they aren't?

Wasn't an equiment failure that resulted in the taking on water, but a build/design one.

gjordan · 15-11-2011, 10:40

I dont mean that all Tayanas are poorly laid out. If this new owner had obtained help ,or advice from a delivery skipper or a surveyor during the ordering process, rather than from a salesman, none of these very basic flaws would have been there from the outset. I believe that this post was started by a fellow that was thinking of spending almost a 1/2 million dollars on a boat that he liked at a boat show. That is a recipe for frustration and possibly wasting a lot of money. It would be a shame for someone to spend that much money on a boat, and give up cruising after the first passage because lack of a proper layout caused exhaustion. I have seen it happen. People can cruise on all sorts of boats,but they all need the very basics, safe and secure berths, a way to prepare decent meals at sea, a head that you wont be thrown off of in bad conditions, a secure cockpit, an easily handled rig and some form of self steering. And dont forget that if a piece of equipment depends on electricity, it will go bad sooner or later. I dont mean to say cruise in a simple or crude boat, but , always know how to function when fancy electrical things start to go bad. Most properly built boats,from the traditional crab crushers to IOR boats can be successfully cruised ,if they are prepared for cruising. Enough of my 2 cents worth_____Grant.

**Jim Cate** · 15-11-2011, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by gjordan

Most properly built boats,from the traditional crab crushers to IOR boats can be successfully cruised ,if they are prepared for cruising. Enough of my 2 cents worth_____Grant.

I think that Grant has accurately answered the OP query here. It is the preparation of boat and crew that makes a successful "Blue Water" voyage possible, not solely the design or construction of the vessel.

Well said, Mate!

Cheers,

Jim

sailorboy1 · 15-11-2011, 14:37

I only posted the Tayana thing because when some people hear of a boat that had a problem; it becomes the boat/manufacturer as a whole that was at the core of the issue.