Vendee 2020

[Jim Cate]

Original Commentary: The dramatic moments on the 5th of March 1995, when during round four in the round robin stage of the Americas Cup challenger series, and in a match race between One Australia and Team New Zealand, the Australian boat split and sunk within two minutes.

And this event lead to the best beer ad ever...

Something like "the only thing that goes down easier than a Steinlager", coupled with a pic of the folded Aussie boat. Needless to say, Steinlager isa Kiwi beer!

Now back on subject...

Jim

[DomPerignon]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...s+cup+sinking+

They are near shore on flat seas and nearly zero danger to their lives.
That’s where flying boats belong , not in the roaring forties.

[MicHughV]

yes, you are right...I remember that now that you posted it.....I imagine that PRB went thru' an identical collapse....wow....seeing it on video certainly gives you an insight to the very little time you have to git yer buns off dere...

thanks for the video....awesome...doesn't get more realistic than that...and if you were sleeping....oh lordy....gives me the shivers just thinking about it...

[DomPerignon]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

They are near shore on flat seas and nearly zero danger to their lives.
That’s where flying boats belong , not in the roaring forties.

I see a motor boat circling just before the sailboat breaks in two.
There was no safety boys circling around Kevin Escoffier when his boat broke in two in 5 meters waves , 40 knots wind , 600 nautical miles from the nearest land .
God bless you

[jmh2002]

Let's not forget that all this is very far away from the average cruiser, and the average cruising boat.

As are the sailors too, in the rarified air up there, in the upper echelons of the sport (not the leisure sailing that is cruising).

I have also taken risks while racing, but those are things I would never do when out cruising with family and friends - that's entirely different, and different standards need to be applied.

But as with all high level sport or adventure, the risks are known and accepted.

Let's just think about the F1 crash on Sunday, where Romain Grosjean hit the barriers at 140mph, splitting the car in half and catching fire, and yet he was able to walk away with minimal injuries.

He was probably saved by the Halo safety device (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_(safety_device)) along with the continued pushing of the boundaries of F1 car construction and performance, and sadly by lessons learned from past fatal crashes as well.

Because that then pushes the subsequent design, construction, and safety improvements too.

Much can be achieved these days by computer simulation but it is still then up to some to venture out 'there' (sometimes for no other good reason than because it is 'there'), where few others dare to tread, and find out where the real limits are for men, women, and their magnificent machines.

Let's not have these great adventures and testing of limits be curtailed by too much nanny state thinking. As sailors we should be especially conscious of this, and the freedom to choose, and to do so, as it remains something close to our hearts and minds.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

Kevin Escoffier got off that boat with only a few seconds to spare. They’re taking the design of these boats right to the limits. It’s a very dangerous game . But like everything else, until someone loses his life there will be no changes.
It’s supposed to be a contest between the best sailors in the world and the sea. Not a contest with their own boats.

People have lost their lives in the VG, and other round the world events (Clipper, Volvo, Jules Verne, etc). Standards tighten, then new generations of teams challenge the very limits within those standards. It is top tier competition (well, not the Clipper) and some teams naturally go past the limits in the quest to be first. That has been the case in every edition of the VG, not just this one now that you’ve turned up to notice.

It’s sport, not certainty.

And celebrate the awesome rescue by JLC!!

[JPA Cate]

Fwiw, they broke the Aussie America's Cup boat that year, with cranking down too much on the backstay.

The builder told us afterwards, "if you don't break them now and then, you're building them too heavily." He did not look nor sound embarrassed. It was just his understanding of his job.

Ann

[Franziska]

Exactly this.

Btw, I seem to remember that the Australian America's cup boat folded many years ago because they run a sheet or something to a different winch then the one it was designed to be used at.
One wrong load path and the structural grid (maze!) fails.

In this VG I would not be surprised though if the core of Corum's, Boss's and PRB's damage is not all related to higher rigging loads than calculated or anticipated.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Fwiw, they broke the Aussie America's Cup boat that year, with cranking down too much on the backstay.

The builder told us afterwards, "if you don't break them now and then, you're building them too heavily." He did not look nor sound embarrassed. It was just his understanding of his job.

Ann

[fxykty]

I’m not sure about higher rig loads being the culprit for a few reasons:[LIST][*] The spreader bars increase the shroud angle, hence lower static shroud tension and lower compression loads on the mast[*] Most if not all headsails have structured luffs, which means less luff and/or stay tension needed for minimising luff sag[*] Rigging loads due to sails are well understood and haven’t changed much recently

However, the increasing lift and resulting dynamic loads on the hull due to the foils are relatively new and likely not that well understood. [LIST][*] PRB, if it folded just in front of the mast as reported, then that would be right in the area of the foils and their internal support structures[*] Hugo Boss support web half way between mast and bow partially failed. This section of hull gets much less support from water and is subject to greater side impacts than if it was in the water more

Just some speculative ideas.

[B23iL23]

Overnight Paprec hit something - serious damage to one foil.

At 0820hrs UTC this morning, ARKEA PAPREC hit an unidentified floating object. The collision caused serious damage to the starboard foil. Skipper
@SebastienSimon_
is coping with the situation with his shore team. Sébastien was not injured.


https://twitter.com/VendeeGlobeENG/s...80301547581442

[DomPerignon]

Originally Posted by fxykty

People have lost their lives in the VG, and other round the world events (Clipper, Volvo, Jules Verne, etc). Standards tighten, then new generations of teams challenge the very limits within those standards. It is top tier competition (well, not the Clipper) and some teams naturally go past the limits in the quest to be first. That has been the case in every edition of the VG, not just this one now that you’ve turned up to notice.

It’s sport, not certainty.

And celebrate the awesome rescue by JLC!!

Don't get me wrong these boats are marvels of technology .
I am just saying they're better suited for backyard sailing like the America's cup and not in the southern oceans.

[Yellowtulip]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

Don't get me wrong these boats are marvels of technology .
I am just saying they're better suited for backyard sailing like the America's cup and not in the southern oceans.

But designers and builders will learn from these failures and make them stronger. Compare non-foiling Vendee boats with the boats used in the recent golden globe race. The Vendee boats are faster stronger and safer because of unrestrained (but controlled) development. The foiling boats will be developed in the same way. I suspect even to the extent that while hitting a floating object at 30knots will always cause damage, it may be possible to keep the boat afloat in most cases.
Many people have noted the parallels with F1, but perhaps a better comparison is with the Paris-Dakar rally cars. They have been developed into enormously strong, fast and reliable cars, though it remains a very dangerous race.

[DomPerignon]

Originally Posted by Yellowtulip

But designers and builders will learn from these failures and make them stronger. Compare non-foiling Vendee boats with the boats used in the recent golden globe race. The Vendee boats are faster stronger and safer because of unrestrained (but controlled) development. The foiling boats will be developed in the same way. I suspect even to the extent that while hitting a floating object at 30knots will always cause damage, it may be possible to keep the boat afloat in most cases.
Many people have noted the parallels with F1, but perhaps a better comparison is with the Paris-Dakar rally cars. They have been developed into enormously strong, fast and reliable cars, though it remains a very dangerous race.

This analogy with formula 1 cars is completely inappropriate .
Formula 1 cars are fighting air , Boats are fighting water.

[Franziska]

While they fight different matters, the analogy in itself is right.
Both are structurally right at their limit and in both cases the loads are enormous.

Despite this I think while the America's Cup is the Formula 1 racing on the water with team quarters, fans and support close by, the Vendee Globe is, as others have said before, much more like the Dakar rally. Teams are far, fans are only remotely following and it's a true endurance race for man & machine.

The IMOCA boats are fully designed for this job, but as anything taken to the limit subject to the occasional failure.
Fixing things in the way as far as possible is part of the "job" and part of the skippers qualifications. Mich Des, took that to the max. The "professor" excelled as a true MacGyver of the oceans.

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

This analogy with formula 1 cars is completely inappropriate .
Formula 1 cars are fighting air , Boats are fighting water.

[MicHughV]

It breaks my heart to see Alex heading for Cape Town....while Cape Town, under any other circumstances is a lovely place to visit, Alex probably won't see it that way