Re-Sealing Twin Keels In The Americas

[SomeGuyInaShirt]

Before I splash in the spring to head off on a very lengthy cruise, I need to re-seal the keels of my Westerly Centaur. The hull/keel joints have always leaked a tiny bit since I bought the boat in 2019 but they really started leaking after I sailed in a gale last time I was cruising. I will lower the keels slightly with the studs still in their holes and clean the mating surfaces before applying sealant but I'm not sure which type of sealant to use. I rans beads of sikaflex around the joints before launching last time and it was completely ineffective so I won't use that again. Would a polysulfide caulking be more effective?

Also wondering what kind of support will be necessary while the keels are up in the air. Will jack stands do the trick if I only do one keel off the ground at a time? I have never had to build anything out of wood so I'm leery of building a wooden stand. Hoping there's a quick and dirty solution to this as I want to get the boat back in the water ASAP and not spend a fortune on lumber only to have to leave it to the boatyard once I splash.

Please don't recommend using products sourced in the UK as all the ones I've been recommended are apparently not obtainable in Canada. Not a single company even responded to my inquiries.

[SailingHarmonie]

That has the potential to be a major project. Keels that have long term chronic leaks, also tend to have seriously corroded keel boats. Inspect them carefully for reduced diameter, and if it is visible, you will need to replace them. This is a critical safety issue.

If you are lucky enough to have avoided that mess, you will want to get the keels far enough from the hull you have sufficient access to REALLY clean the mating surfaces. Not getting them really clean means you might as well just skip doing it.

For bedding compound, you can use the traditional Dolfinite, or a polyurethane like Dow 5200. Either will give excellent results. As always, follow directions exactly, especially for curing times.

As for the mechanics of dealing with your keels, I don’t know enough about the specifics to help you there…

[boatman61]

You could always check out this guy...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JmA-WFTPjqU

[SomeGuyInaShirt]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

For bedding compound, you can use the traditional Dolfinite

Funny how a search for keel bedding compounds didn't turn up anything about Dolfinite, I am intrigued. Have you used this under the waterline? Being a twin keeler, I put the boat on hard sand a fair bit so I'm looking for something nice and elastic.

Thanks for the recommendation :-)

[wyb2]

As has been said, to do it right you are going to want to fully separate the keel from the hull and inspect the studs and clean the surfaces.

I can’t imagine how to DIY this without building some supports with lumber. I mean you could build it out of something else (I’d consider welded steel) but it will cost more. Looks like each keel weighs 1400lbs, this is not an amount of weight you can manipulate without good fixturing or heavy equipment.

I’m a little confused when you talk about lifting the keel up in the air. You either need the ability to lift the boat with the keel supported, or lower the keel with the boat supported. With fin keelers I think people generally fixture the keel to prevent it from tipping, and have the yard lift their boat off it with the travel lift. Having two keels at a slight angle complicates this. It may be easier to have the yard lift and block the boat up high enough that you have space to lower a keel (in a cradle) away from it without hitting the ground.

[SomeGuyInaShirt]

I'm thinking of getting a 20'000lb capacity bottle jack like the kind heavy truck mechanics use to lift the boat up via the keels one side at a time, it's the cheapest option. I'll probably end up building a wooden frame underneath the boat to both support the weight of the boat and hold the keel at the correct angle. Other Centaur owners advocate not removing the studs from their holes due to the difficulty of precisely maneuvering heavy keels so I will try to follow that advice initially but might have to rethink my approach if I see stud corrosion or keel corrosion. I think the crux of the situation will be building the wooden frame as I don't really know how to join heavy timbers and there is limited help anywhere near the yard so calling someone in is prohibitively expensive.

[Ballsnall]

Originally Posted by SomeGuyInaShirt

I'll probably end up building a wooden frame underneath the boat to both support the weight of the boat and hold the keel at the correct angle.

I think this is probably the best way to go. That way the keels will slide down the frame at the correct angle.

Other Centaur owners advocate not removing the studs from their holes due to the difficulty of precisely maneuvering heavy keels so I will try to follow that advice initially but might have to rethink my approach if I see stud corrosion or keel corrosion.

Get two longer studs or threaded rod so you can lower the keels at least a foot to be able to work on the matting surfaces.

I think the crux of the situation will be building the wooden frame as I don't really know how to join heavy timbers and there is limited help anywhere near the yard so calling someone in is prohibitively expensive.

Bolt them rather than screw or nail. Add plenty of cross bracing. Add additional yard supports fore and aft that will take the majority of the weight.

Don't use dolfinite for this application, any good quality polyurethane sealant will do the job. Just be aware it is not like normal bedding of deck fittings or through hulls where you wait for it to cure before fully tightening.

With keels you should tighten the keel bolts immediately to squeeze out all excess sealant so you have a tight hull to keel joint. Generally that happens when the boat weight is lowered onto the keel. In your situation you will need to use the bolting force so have a impact gun available to do the initial tightening.
The sealant will just take up any voids or surface irregularities.

[SomeGuyInaShirt]

Great advice, thanks!

[Mike Burch]

My first boat was a Centaur bought second-hand in 1979, and a fine little boat she was, too. The keels never leaked, but until I moved the lower chainplates down to the side deck from Westerly's original site above the cabin window, the windows leaked like sieves in any rain or heavy seas. The rolling of the boat caused the lower shrouds to pull the top of the window frame up and down, while the glass didn't move, thus ruining the seal between frame and glass, and pumping rain or spray inside.

I'm surprised you had no joy with Sikaflex. There are several different versions of Sikaflex, and you really do need to ensure you're using the right one. Whatever you use, don't use any form of silicone.

Your habit of taking the ground periodically should not encourage flexibility in the sealant. I would be extremely concerned at any flexibility in the hull/keel joint.

+1 for the advice to get the keel to a position where you can ensure you have cleaned the joint area thoroughly. And, of course, the joint area on the hull too.

[SomeGuyInaShirt]

How did you find your boat hove-to? I've only done it sloppily and in winds no more than 40 knots so not the ultimate test by any stretch but hove-to while reefing and changing headsails I was surprised how waves still broke against the topsides. Were you able to get your Centaur to heave-to in such a way that the waves broke upwind enough to spare your boat the trauma? I don't know if it's possible with the short keels. Where did you go in your boat? Any advice for Centaur cruising?

[Pete7]

There was a modification to Westerly Centaurs which involved adding strengthening webs inside above the keels. Has yours been modified?

https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/i..._bedding_Keels

The real experts will on the Westerly Owners Association Forum which is free to join.

No problem about drying out with twin keels. We regularly do it. Worth putting a pit prop under the bow and stern if you are on dry land for a while, to hold her steady. If its possible arrange for the boat to be slightly bow up, so the rain water runs off the deck and out of the cockpit.

Pete

[Pete7]

You don't have to go to these lengths, though Roger did increase the draft of his Centaur. Sadly after finishing he cut her up in the end.

https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/th...narchy.158328/

[Mike Burch]

Originally Posted by SomeGuyInaShirt

How did you find your boat hove-to? I've only done it sloppily and in winds no more than 40 knots so not the ultimate test by any stretch but hove-to while reefing and changing headsails I was surprised how waves still broke against the topsides. Were you able to get your Centaur to heave-to in such a way that the waves broke upwind enough to spare your boat the trauma? I don't know if it's possible with the short keels. Where did you go in your boat? Any advice for Centaur cruising?

I suppose I must have hove-to occasionally, but I have no memory of it. Since heaving-to requires the main and fore sails to be trying to push the boat in opposite directions, I don't understand how you can heave to and simultaneously change sails.

I never had the Centaur out in 40 knots of wind.

The area I sailed her was the East coast rivers of England, from Dover to Southwold, including the Thames and Medway. The shoal waters of that part of the world are exactly what she was designed for.

Any advice for Centaur cruising? Nothing specific to that model of boat. Just be aware that 26' of twin-keeled yacht doesn't go anywhere in a hurry, and pick your cruising area, route, weather, tide, and crew accordingly!

Oh, and assuming she's still got the original Volvo MD2B engine, look after it meticulously. If you ever need spare parts, Volvo's prices will give you heart failure.

[SomeGuyInaShirt]

Originally Posted by Mike Burch

I suppose I must have hove-to occasionally, but I have no memory of it. Since heaving-to requires the main and fore sails to be trying to push the boat in opposite directions, I don't understand how you can heave to and simultaneously change sails.

I never had the Centaur out in 40 knots of wind.

The area I sailed her was the East coast rivers of England, from Dover to Southwold, including the Thames and Medway. The shoal waters of that part of the world are exactly what she was designed for.

Any advice for Centaur cruising? Nothing specific to that model of boat. Just be aware that 26' of twin-keeled yacht doesn't go anywhere in a hurry, and pick your cruising area, route, weather, tide, and crew accordingly!

Oh, and assuming she's still got the original Volvo MD2B engine, look after it meticulously. If you ever need spare parts, Volvo's prices will give you heart failure.

Yeah I guess during a sail change it's not technically hove-to but I don't know what else to call it. I set the boat up so that it will lie roughly 50 degrees off the wind taking the waves more or less on the forward quarter while I try to get a different sail up and keep my breakfast down, lol.

It's definitely a slow boat but I like how much more stable it is compared to the other small boats I've owned. I prefer comfort over speed. Humorously, the original owners purchased this boat new from Maryland on the Atlantic coast of the USA, had it trucked inland to Fargo North Dakota and raced it on non-tidal lakes in between the typical hellish -40° winters common in that region. I can't imagine a more inappropriate boat for their purposes or a stranger path for a boat to get into my hands.

I had a lot of problems with the original Volvo engine so I replaced it with a Beta Marine 25. It's nice to be able to motor at 6.5 knots with reserve power available and no worries about whether the engine will run again or not, haha. The exorbitant cost of used Volvo spares partially fueled my decision to swap engines.

What are you sailing now?

[SomeGuyInaShirt]

Update: I used Boat Life "Life Calc" polysulfide caulking to re-seal the keels and it didn't work. The port side was relatively dry but when any real lateral forces were placed on either keel they leaked like sieves, you can imagine what offshore sailing did to the lockers. If I didn't have a good bilge pump and wet/dry vacuum I would have lost the boat. Very annoyed. Now I have to do the same repair again but in Mexico where virtually no specialty equipment is available for boats. For extra fun I struck my rudder on the seabed while at anchor in Oregon and it began leaking badly. Now I've got to deal with that too. If you have a Centaur with original sealant on the rudder shaft/fitting I highly recommend replacing it prophylactically. The rudder strike was no more powerful than that which your boat experiences when the tide goes out on a mooring.