Pilothouse Love em or Hate em

[Pauls]

Regards hot weather/tropics, a properly done pilothouse can be very comfortable. Keeping in the shade is a big deal in the tropics and a pilothouse provides that. All that is necessary is good ventilation. A pilothouse with a good flow of air thru it is a comfortable place to be.

[passage_paul]

I really appreciate all the responses and all the great passion. Thanks for taking time to share.

I am definitely liking what I see with all the various vessels as suggested.

I think I would get alot of use from a pilot house.. especially with a settee or at least nav station.. so I can sit and even enjoy a cup of coffee in a "chilly morning and still be able to enjoy the view and sunshine. I have a bit of "nosey Mrs. Bates" running in my veins.. and I like to see my surroundings.

I also like that that there is some sort of separation between spaces. As I mentioned it will be just myself most of the time.. with some family and friends joining here and there. I also plan to circum...but understand now that could take many years. So bobbing around the Pacific could keep me super busy and content for many years...

I was concerned about budget and while some lovely vessels have been listed a few are sooo far out of my paupers pocket that I can only drool.

But I am super stoked that many are well within my range.

Thanks!

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by slug

Naw

The helmsman steers thru the waves

The helmsman steers thru a heavy weather maneuver.. reef , jibe

This can’t be done hand steering in the wheelhouse or by auto

Just for what it may be worth, we do use our autopilot when we reef. We come up, to reef with this particular boat. On Jim's Yankee 30, we used to maintain course, and did hand steer for reefing or jibing, but on this boat, we do it under autopilot, and we jibe the runners if we're running with a full main.

So, I must disagree. Our experience indicates we can indeed reef and gybe using the autopilot. It CAN be done, has been done many times, offshore and inshore.

You may find it preferable to hand steer for such maneuvers. That's fine. However, such a preference constitutes a practice, but not an incontrovertible fact.

Ann

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Just for what it may be worth, we do use our autopilot when we reef. We come up, to reef with this particular boat. On Jim's Yankee 30, we used to maintain course, and did hand steer for reefing or jibing, but on this boat, we do it under autopilot, and we jibe the runners if we're running with a full main.

So, I must disagree. Our experience indicates we can indeed reef and gybe using the autopilot. It CAN be done, has been done many times, offshore and inshore.

You may find it preferable to hand steer for such maneuvers. That's fine. However, such a preference constitutes a practice, but not an incontrovertible fact.

Ann

Indeed, I agree.

For the discussion here, nobody suggested to stay in the pilothouse during gybing or reefing so I think it's a bit silly from this commenter to take those maneuvers as examples why autopilots can't steer. It was first stated that it didn't work in storms, then when that was debunked, goalposts were quickly moved. It kills normal discussion...

[Johnno]

We've sailed some 12,000 miles aboard "Sundowner", our pilot house Cheoy Lee 43 in both tropical and southern winter waters and wouldn't go to sea without a pilot house! The enclosed pilot house provides excellent protection in wet weather, far better than crew trying to hide behind a dodger while the helmsman still gets wet. On a lovely day we can seat 10 comfortably in the aft cockpit with the aft helm position in use. I've heard all teh blah, blah, blah about pilot house windows being too big, too much windage, etc and after sailing some 70,000 miles offshore, I'd still prefer a pilot hoouse!

[Wayne hoath]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I have not seen that for a very long time. Today’s autopilots do better than hand steering, especially in rough conditions.



Wheel and tiller pilots are what caused that bad reputation. Belowdecks hydraulic units have no trouble at all and even the linear actuators do okayish

Agreed. We have hydraulic steering. You do lose some the feel when hand steering but autopilot is rock solid and better than me at maintaining a heading in anything other than the lightest breeze. Perhaps that says more about me than the autopilot :-(

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Wayne hoath

Agreed. We have hydraulic steering. You do lose some the feel when hand steering but autopilot is rock solid and better than me at maintaining a heading in anything other than the lightest breeze. Perhaps that says more about me than the autopilot :-(

The new autopilots with their 3D accelerometers are so good. I see the wheel react (looks like anticipate as the sensors are so good) to waves quicker than most human helmsmen.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I have not seen that for a very long time. Today’s autopilots do better than hand steering, especially in rough conditions. Wheel and tiller pilots are what caused that bad reputation. Belowdecks hydraulic units have no trouble at all and even the linear actuators do okayish

My comment was that few of "today's boats" have autopilots that can handle a gale.

Regarding below decks hydraulic units, I have one and I can tell you first hand that when the waves are high enough, especially with offshore cross swells, my unit can't keep up and I have to hand steer. Doing so from the inside is a wonderful option when the winds are howling, the boat is taking sheets of water over the bow and it's freezing cold.

Two exceptions I'm personally familiar with-

1. When the sails are perfectly balanced the boat practically sails itself. Heck, one recent overnight watch I discovered in the morning that I had accidentally turned off the autopilot and never noticed, the boat kept its course perfectly.

Of course, this only works if conditions are stable and not when the wind direction is constantly shifting in relation to the waves and swells.

2. Commercial autopilots. I had one on a previous boat that was built by a fishing boat manufacturer and that thing was so robust it seemed like could handle anything. I was not able to explore its limits while I had that boat.

Of course, few recreational boats have this beefy an autopilot. Perhaps your Sundeer 64 does.

[Matt Johnson]

Sounds like your drive isn't up to the task, has an air leak, or was undersized from the start.

But it's not the drives that make today's autopilots so much better than even ten years ago. It's the computer and heading sensor combination that have improved so dramatic that they are often predictive and better than most helmsman.

Matt

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

My comment was that few of "today's boats" have autopilots that can handle a gale.

Regarding below decks hydraulic units, I have one and I can tell you first hand that when the waves are high enough, especially with offshore cross swells, my unit can't keep up and I have to hand steer. Doing so from the inside is a wonderful option when the winds are howling, the boat is taking sheets of water over the bow and it's freezing cold.

Two exceptions I'm personally familiar with-

1. When the sails are perfectly balanced the boat practically sails itself. Heck, one recent overnight watch I discovered in the morning that I had accidentally turned off the autopilot and never noticed, the boat kept its course perfectly.

Of course, this only works if conditions are stable and not when the wind direction is constantly shifting in relation to the waves and swells.

2. Commercial autopilots. I had one on a previous boat that was built by a fishing boat manufacturer and that thing was so robust it seemed like could handle anything. I was not able to explore its limits while I had that boat.

Of course, few recreational boats have this beefy an autopilot. Perhaps your Sundeer 64 does.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Sounds like your drive isn't up to the task, has an air leak, or was undersized from the start.

But it's not the drives that make today's autopilots so much better than even ten years ago. It's the computer and heading sensor combination that have improved so dramatic that they are often predictive and better than most helmsman.

Matt

Hit the nail on the head. Let me add that for the thought that commercial pilots only come for few(big) boats. That used to be true... ours came with a WH Smith pilot and it was great. But is was analog old school.

Today, all boats with a Simrad or (post Navico) B&G pilot have a commercial pilot. It is the famed Robertson pilot, still from its Scandinavian designers. And there are more, all within reach for serious offshore cruisers.

For the hydraulic drive there is no limit in power. If your unit can’t cope, upgrade to the next level offered. My Hydraulics are manufactured in 1993 and it was only last year that I rebuilt the hydraulic RAM... cost me $25 for the seals kit This is still the old unit from WH Smith, I just connected the new pilot to it and was ready to go. Like FunJohnson wrote, it’s the electronics and new sensors that changed the game, not the hydraulics

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Sounds like your drive isn't up to the task, has an air leak, or was undersized from the start.
But it's not the drives that make today's autopilots so much better than even ten years ago. It's the computer and heading sensor combination that have improved so dramatic that they are often predictive and better than most helmsman. Matt

Thanks for your comment Matt. My drive might be undersized for my boat, I don't know how to tell, it is one of the few things untouched during our recent re-fit, which did include all new B&G electronics, so I do have the computer and sensor power.

Before we left SF Bay I was active in our sailing club which had lots of newer, sizable boats with autopilots that did fine in the bay and would get overwhelmed offshore in gale conditions, as mine did. That is the basis for my observation/opinion about "today's boats."

So here's what most commonly happens to me... on a course and a cross swell or wave knocks my bow leeward. Usually the autopilot can correct, but if knocked far enough parallel to the waves with gale force winds pushing the boat with enough force, the autopilot can't correct and the alarm comes on. Through trial and error on my boat, I discovered that if I give it time the autopilot eventually can correct, but if conditions are severe enough I need to manually steer back on course.

I have a Garmin hydraulic ram attached to the rudder quadrant that seems sizable enough, but even with my new updated electronics the autopilot needs help in a strong enough gale.

So here's a question for those who might have an informed opinion- Is my experience described above normal or does it seem my ram is undersized, or...?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Thanks for your comment Matt. My drive might be undersized for my boat, I don't know how to tell, it is one of the few things untouched during our recent re-fit, which did include all new B&G electronics, so I do have the computer and sensor power.

Before we left SF Bay I was active in our sailing club which had lots of newer, sizable boats with autopilots that did fine in the bay and would get overwhelmed offshore in gale conditions, as mine did. That is the basis for my observation/opinion about "today's boats."

So here's what most commonly happens to me... on a course and a cross swell or wave knocks my bow leeward. Usually the autopilot can correct, but if knocked far enough parallel to the waves with gale force winds pushing the boat with enough force, the autopilot can't correct and the alarm comes on. Through trial and error on my boat, I discovered that if I give it time the autopilot eventually can correct, but if conditions are severe enough I need to manually steer back on course.

I have a Garmin hydraulic ram attached to the rudder quadrant that seems sizable enough, but even with my new updated electronics the autopilot needs help in a strong enough gale.

So here's a question for those who might have an informed opinion- Is my experience above normal or does it seem my ram is undersized?

Does the rudder turn all the way over when it tries to come back on course? If it does, the hydraulics are strong enough.

What kind of heading sensor do you have? And what pilot computer? I think the cause might be found there, I.e. when the computer doesn’t have enough power for the electric feed to the hydraulics then that is the problem. If the heading sensor is in the meh... class then this is why the wave and wind get your bow pushed over to start with.

[rslifkin]

Autopilots often have settings to control how aggressively they respond, so the system may need some adjusting to work well with your boat's behaviors in heavy weather.

[Pelagic]

In these discussions about "pilothouse" the definition of what it actually is......seems to vary a lot.

To me, it is a fully enclosed house where one can pilot from (day and night) without interference from below deck lights and activities.

Underway the pilothouse should provide good visibility for the lookout.

Often forgotten, they should have complete engine and steering controls inside for immediate reaction when motor sailing. Otherwise, to me they are just a "raised salon " configuration.

My Stargazer has all of that so I call her a pilothouse.

Of particular note, between the port and starboard consoles, stepping down to the galley/salon, there is a roll-down door that completely blocks light and noise from off watch crew when 'piloting" at night from the pilothouse.

Many designs favor large open plans with huge seating capacities inside.

That does not favor a functional pilothouse.

Personally, I prefer more than one small intimate area inside, where two our three can have a quiet conversation without disturbing others. But you give up that wide open plan, below decks, which I am not a fan of, so that's ok with me

As a liveaboard, with just the two of us most of the time, we can enjoy private spaces away from each other, when we feel the need. (Secret to a long term relationship .

Finally, the cockpit is really the best social area fot larger groups at anchor.

I see many pilothouse designs compromised in this area in order to keep the length over all, down.

This is the main area where smaller pilothouse designs fail.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Does the rudder turn all the way over when it tries to come back on course? If it does, the hydraulics are strong enough.

What kind of heading sensor do you have? And what pilot computer? I think the cause might be found there, I.e. when the computer doesn’t have enough power for the electric feed to the hydraulics then that is the problem. If the heading sensor is in the meh... class then this is why the wave and wind get your bow pushed over to start with.

I have all new B&G stuff, installed 2 years ago by my electronics guy who does factory installs and warranty work for B&G, so I trust I have the best setup possible electronically.

And that is exactly what happens- In a typical situation the rudder is at its limit when the alarm goes off and I'm parallel to waves large enough that even with the engine on (motorsailing for better control in gale conditions) I'm stuck in the troughs, the wind is too strong on the beam at the crests, and the autopilot can't recover the course. This is the only time I curse my high windage pilothouse and large hardtop over the center cockpit, acting as wind catchers.

When I take over and hand steer, sometimes I can time the waves and power back on course and sometimes I need to jibe around if upwind course and chicken jibe if downwind course.