NADA vs. YachtWorld - Grrrrrrr

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Dawntreader2

...the boat, to me is first a deal, I have no sentimentality when it comes to my buildings or to this first boat.

Good for you. That's exactly the way it SHOULD be, when you're in the process of buying, whether it is your first boat, your last boat, or anything in between.

Once the boat is yours, if you develop an emotional attachment to it, there's nothing wrong with that. But only AFTER the deal is done. Falling in love with a boat BEFORE you own it is a really good way to end up spending a lot more than you should, to get a lot less than you could.

[JRM]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Good for you. That's exactly the way it SHOULD be, when you're in the process of buying, whether it is your first boat, your last boat, or anything in between.

Once the boat is yours, if you develop an emotional attachment to it, there's nothing wrong with that. But only AFTER the deal is done. Falling in love with a boat BEFORE you own it is a really good way to end up spending a lot more than you should, to get a lot less than you could.

I don't know. When I was first looking I was so bummed, because everywhere I looked were crap boats at bristol prices. We don't even want to get started on broker honesty. I found an honest one, but although he has many attributes, the ability to read the minds of the seller's brokers wasn't foremost among them. I, and we, went on many a wild goose chase.

When we found the boat we ultimately purchased, it was like PBlaise said: the best of the ones we could afford for a multitude of reasons. We knew that this was the one for us. Call it "falling in love" if you will, but it is possible to both have your cake and eat it too. To love a boat and still set a reasonable expectation of what it's worth - to you. But it moves you from "chasing a deal" to "chasing your boat." I'm not planning on sailing my wife and kid on a deal, I'm sailing them on a boat.

I think if you don't love a boat before you buy it then you'll miss the whole "honeymoon period," before it breaks your heart and takes half of what you own. Why would I want to buy a boat I didn't love? It represents a huge investment (and we can discuss that word also) of my time, effort, and funds. There are lots of other things I could spend them on.

The people I trust enough to tell the purchase amount tell me I got a great deal. I think I did OK, but I probably could have squeezed another 5-7% out of the seller. But why? I can afford it, I'm happy with the deal, he's happy with the deal, and it made for a much better relationship this way. In the global scheme of things, the purchase price is only a slice of the total cost of ownership. It was the first boat that I was more interested in getting the boat than getting a deal. That doesn't mean I suddenly got all bleary eyed and started throwing money around (that's now that the refit is starting).

Love or not, decide what the boat is worth to you. I spent hours pricing out equipment and project planning on boats I was trying to buy. I decided what it was worth to me, and that was my upper limit. Any headroom between that and what is eventually paid is just gravy. But even if you hit that number exactly, isn't it still a good deal? Only you can decide.

That's a long way to say, "buy what you like." A boat you don't love is a bad deal at any price.

JRM

[denverd0n]

Maybe it's a matter of semantics. To me, "love" denotes something that you can't really be objective about, and certainly can't just easily walk away from. I love my wife. I love my daughter. I certainly didn't "love" any of my boats while I was negotiating their purchase.

Yes, one of the boats in particular really grabbed me. The first time I saw it I knew that it was exactly what I was looking for. I wanted it. I wanted to find a way to make the deal work. I certainly didn't want to walk away without making every effort to close the deal. But I wasn't "in love" with it. I didn't have any emotional investment. And if the deal had not been a good one for me I most certainly WOULD have walked away from it, easily.

Maybe some people throw around the word "love" a lot more freely than I do. Can you be "in love" with something and not have an emotional attachment to it? Not the way that I use the word. And developing an emotional attachment to a boat before you own it is, like I said, a good way to end up spending a lot more than you should to get a lot less than you could.

(Oh, and that boat I talked about? I eventually did develop an emotional attachment to it, like I have--at least to some extent--with all my boats. It was a great boat. Making the decision to sell it was one of the hardest decisions I've ever made. But once that decision was made I let the emotional attachments go and selling it, once again, was just a business deal.)

[JazzyO]

Not everything is about saving money. I bought my boat because I loved it. It turned out that I needed to restore the hull, costing me more than I wanted and I knew that when I bought it. Went ahead anyway. Didn't want another model, and with only 55 ever built it's not like I could easily find a better example.
I also paid a lot more for the painting of the boat because I wanted the boat to have the look and colour I designed. She's drop dead gorgeous now, at least in most people's eyes, and it was worth the expense.

Onno

[Capt Phil]

I've only used a broker once to consummate a boat deal and that was after a couple of heart ot heart talks about who he was really working for. Generally speaking, I would avoid using a broker unless required to by law or the seller had signed a bulletproof listing agreement. Fortunately, I've been around boats my whole life and, while not a licensed surveyor, I've provided professional advice to buyers on the seasworthiness of boats they were interested in depending on their intended use, ie., dock queen, day sails, coastal cruising vs offshore passagemaking.
The last deal I was involved with was a private sale with both buyer and seller in locations different from where the vessel was lying. All was progressing well with negotiations over conditions of various items like electronics, engine/transmission, sail inventory, etc., taking place when suddenly out of the blue, a broker claiming he represented the seller appeared on the scene. Evidently, the seller had signed a listing agreement that had not quite expired and the broker demanded that the listing agreement be enforced and not only was he due 10% of the sale price but pressured the seller (according to the seller) to cut off communications with the buyer, restablished a new selling price considerably higher than that which the seller had agreed to requiring all offers to be passed through him, exclusively.
I had no financial interest in the outcome as I was giving my opinion of the vessels' condition as a favor to my friend who was the buyer.
This broker who was also in a remote location from the boat, the potential buyer and the seller, managed to queer the whole deal with his intrusion in to the process after a deal had all but been done.
The deal fell through, the seller was pissed and the potential buyer ended up buying a different boat about 6 months later. Had the broker used his head, he would have let the sale close then go after the seller for a claim based on his listing agreement.
I've mentioned this story to several folks I knew who were in the market for a boat and I believe they have all avoided broker listed boats based on this horror story. Phil

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

This broker who was also in a remote location from the boat, the potential buyer and the seller, managed to queer the whole deal with his intrusion in to the process after a deal had all but been done.

The deal fell through, the seller was pissed and the potential buyer ended up buying a different boat about 6 months later. Had the broker used his head, he would have let the sale close then go after the seller for a claim based on his listing agreement.

Although I think the Broker was an idiot to take the approach he used (for the reason you stated - should have gone after the Vendor once the deal completed), nonetheless I principally blame the Vendor - for being an idiot . No doubt he didn't read what he signed with the Broker (or didn't understand it ) - albeit IME all too common for folks to think things don't apply to them simply for no longer being conveniant ......IMO a touch of smarts (a deal with the Broker or simply letting the agreement time out) would have been the way forward.

Would be interesting to know how long it took to (re!)sell that boat later - and how much for.........and whether he carried on with that Broker .

[Capt Phil]

Excellent points, DOJ... I think that due to the remote location of the broker from the seller and also the vessel, the seller thought that because the time was within a week of when he received the offer that the listing agreement expired, what could possibly go wrong. I understand the broker convinced the seller to move the boat to his dock requiring overland shipping at considerable cost at the sellers expense. Two years later the price had dropped below what my buyer friend had offered and was still for sale.
The seller was probably trying to pull a fast one and got caught but the broker queered the deal, lost the sale and his commmission through being an idiot. Word has it he holds on to his job by getting listings then sitting back and waiting for the seller to do the work showing up at the last minute to collect his commission without lifting a finger. Just one of the reasons I avoid these bottom feeders like the plague, at least on the west coast of the US. Phil

[Nessus]

I have actively been searching for a boat for about 3 months now after close to 20 years of dreaming. I admit had there not been a market crash I would not now be in a position to be making the offers I have lately. I hate to say this but I have written two offers for 50% of the asking price on two Bristol Channel Cutters. Both have been turned down but I dig get a counter on one which I'm considering. I too worry about being that guy. The ******* who may insult a seller. I've resigned to the fact that it is what it is. I'm 38 years old and can ill afford to make a mistake. I'm not taking a loan. These are my cash savings which helps. If it were the banks money I might be looser. The banks probably wouldn't lend on the 20 year old vessels I'm bidding.

[Tia Bu]

Originally Posted by Nessus

I have actively been searching for a boat for about 3 months now after close to 20 years of dreaming. I admit had there not been a market crash I would not now be in a position to be making the offers I have lately. I hate to say this but I have written two offers for 50% of the asking price on two Bristol Channel Cutters. Both have been turned down but I dig get a counter on one which I'm considering. I too worry about being that guy. The ******* who may insult a seller. I've resigned to the fact that it is what it is. I'm 38 years old and can ill afford to make a mistake. I'm not taking a loan. These are my cash savings which helps. If it were the banks money I might be looser. The banks probably wouldn't lend on the 20 year old vessels I'm bidding.

Do not be ashamed. Do not budge. Be patient. Sooner or later one of these sellers (or the seller of another boat) will wake up and realize you are doing them a favor.

Remember- someday you'll have to sell the same boat. And do you really think the banks are going to be any more likely to lend money on it when that time comes?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

Excellent points, DOJ... I think that due to the remote location of the broker from the seller and also the vessel, the seller thought that because the time was within a week of when he received the offer that the listing agreement expired, what could possibly go wrong. I understand the broker convinced the seller to move the boat to his dock requiring overland shipping at considerable cost at the sellers expense. Two years later the price had dropped below what my buyer friend had offered and was still for sale.
The seller was probably trying to pull a fast one and got caught but the broker queered the deal, lost the sale and his commmission through being an idiot. Word has it he holds on to his job by getting listings then sitting back and waiting for the seller to do the work showing up at the last minute to collect his commission without lifting a finger. Just one of the reasons I avoid these bottom feeders like the plague, at least on the west coast of the US. Phil

Whether or not the broker had a legitimate claim depends on the type of listing. You can give the broker an exclusive or non-exclusive listing. With the exclusive the broker will get a share of the commission no matter who sells the boat. Benefit to the seller, the broker will be more motivated (theoretically) to advertise and sell the boat since he or she is guaranteed some percentage of the return. Negative, is the seller cannot list with other brokers or sell the boat privately without paying a fee to the listing broker.

Sounds like this seller had an exclusive listing and as you say, tried to pull a fast one; unethical and a violation of a legal contract. However if the broker acted as you report he was a fool and a jerk who shot himself in the foot.

But I have to comment you are judging all brokers by the actions of one (or even a few if you've had other negative experiences). I used to be a yacht broker and knew many that were honest, hardworking and knowledgeable. Many cruisers like you or me that were just trying to find a way to make a living doing what they loved. Also knew more than a few that were scoundrels and crooks but they were definitely the minority.