Keel problems! Your opinion .

[konoplia]

Hi. After taking boat out of the water I found these damages on a keel joint place. Problem was that water from a bilge went through the bolts (stainless) to the keel where it destroyed fiberglass . Painting at this place was loosened and after removing it I discovered big holes full of water between keel and hull. As you can see on pictures, big holes around keel joint place, destroyed wet fiberglass coming out from these holes .
If you look only to these picture what would be your opinion about damages and fixing plan?
I understand that it is not easy to make an opinion based only on these pictures. But if you , please, can write some your thoughts about , I will be thankful.

[UNCIVILIZED]

I'm assuming that 3 of the pics are rotated 90 deg. from their real world orientation, & that the wet, mushy fiberglass is located at the bottom of the keel sump onto which the lead ballast keel is bolted, right? If so, then I'd think that to fully ascertain the amount of damage, you'll need to drop the ballast keel so that you can fully inspect; the keel bolts, the keel sump/stub, & the lead keel. That in addition to removing all of the flaking paint & coatings anywhere that they're loose.

A big job, to be sure. Especially if it's determined that much structural glass work is needed. And not to dishearten you, but you might want to skim this thread about a repair to the keel sump of another CF member's boat http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ir-164093.html

I'll refrain from offering further judgement until more is known, though, yes, this has the potential to be ugly, sadly. Any idea how long things have been wet? And has the boat taken any hard groundings? Regardless, you'll also need to fully inspect the keel floors, & other internal structures for damage, or possibly, insufficient resin in the laminate. Since it's tough for most laminates to get wet & mushy if they've been fully wetted out when the boat was built. At least in my experience.

Edit: It's also worth sounding all of the hull, & putting a moisture meter on it if you have access to one. Also, know that I tend to think about the worst case scenario when I see things like this.

[Pete7]

Given your location I would suspect ice has formed between the layers of GRP or the gelcoat and GRP to cause that. Quite what to do about it is another issue. I suspect grinding off the layers of GRP until you reach solid fibreglass is needed and possibly removing the keel to repair the keel stub.

There is one other possibility, has a previous owner laid fibreglass over the seem between the keel and the hull and this is what is coming off? looks a little to big in area to be this but with seeing how far up the hull the strip of grp goes.

Pete

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, konoplia.

[Suijin]

I agree with both Uncivilized and Pete. You're going to have to drop the keel, replace the keel bolts, rebuild the keel stub, and reseal/reattach the keel. I would bet that once water penetrated the joint that freezing wreaked havoc with the keel stub structure, expanding and destroying layup.

When you repair, I'd suggest that you don't fair anything over the joint, i.e., keep the two surfaces (keel stub and keel) separate, with just caulk between. Just let the caulk get pressed out when the hull is lowered back onto the keel and clean it up to fillet. If you put fairing compound on it it's just going to crack and then cause deterioration of the adjoining layers on the stub and keel.

I'll point out one other thing, which is that the gelcoat/barrier/paint layer is separating from the layup pretty far up from the joint, perhaps due to freezing. Whatever the cause, you're going to want to grind all that back to good glass up as far as you need to to get to sound construction.

[old frog]

It looks like you have a couple secondary bonds, fairing "bog" to accommodate uneven mating surfaces & prior wrap around the keel joint. How do you know the source of the water was via the keel bolts rather than permeation through the laminate &/or laminate macro cracking? You posted that the boat was just pulled from the water. when was the boat last out? When a boat is afloat, bilge bilge water from a keel sump does not leak out, the driving forces are the other direction, water leaks into the bilge.

It it were were mine, the first thing I would do prior to removing the keel is to verify the suspected bilge water leakage out. Put water in the bilge, this time of year & your location, potable antifreeze may be a better choice, add lots of food coloring for easy identification & check in a week or so.

Is/was there any movement at the ballast/hull joint? It can be checked when the boat is in the slings.

[old frog]

Keep in mind, when the boat is blocked ashore, the hull weight is on the keel joint and compressing the joint. When afloat, the joint is in tension. If leaking, usually they will do so when blocked ashore. Suspending it in the slings over night or weekend may show the condition faster.

[capt jgw]

Hopefully the loose glass is a patch that was applied over the joint to stop the leaking. Commonly done but rarely does any good. You do need to drop the keel to check the bolts. Stainless steel exposed to salt water without a free exchange of oxygen, which is exactly the environment you have here, is very prone to corrosion. The metal can crumble away to dust rather quickly. If you can get to all the bolt heads without tearing the interior apart its not too bad a job. Brace the keel so it doesn't fall over, pull the nuts or bolts, then have the Travel Lift come back and pick the hull up off the keel. If the bolts break off when you try to loosen them, you'll know this needed doing now.

[rognvald]

Drop the keel. You most likely have serious structural issues. Good luck.

[hamburking]

Like others have said, and you likely don't want to hear...this is bad, and this is big.

You may want to consider the value of the boat before you proceed, as this repair is going to be costly both in money and time. The cost of repair may exceed the value of the boat.

So...what make/model of boat is it? No offense, but I want to be sure not to buy one like it.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by hamburking

Like others have said, and you likely don't want to hear...this is bad, and this is big.

You may want to consider the value of the boat before you proceed, as this repair is going to be costly both in money and time. The cost of repair may exceed the value of the boat.

So...what make/model of boat is it? No offense, but I want to be sure not to buy one like it.

Gib Sea 26 ft,,

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Gib Sea 26 ft,,

What if he were to drill out all the bad glass, and fill with epoxy. Smooth and paint.

It would not be a great repair, but maybe he could get a few more years out of the boat.

Thoughts?

[roverhi]

Someone tried to do the impossible, mate inflexible fiber glass to a flexible keel joint. Bolt on keels work on every boat I've seen. The keel/hull joint is normally filled with a semi flexible caulk and all is well. Looks like someone tried to have a perfectly smooth hull to keel union and glassed over this joint. Flexing of the keel has broken the bond in places and possibly water has been trapped and frozen further degrading the fiberglass bond. Grind away the glass all around the keel and inspect. If you are lucky, it's just this fiberglass layup that's the problem and a little grinding and fairing and painting over the joint area will solve the problem. If the fiberglass keel stub has issues that run deeper than the added glass bond then you will have to drop the keel. Not a bad idea to inspect the keel bolts in any case. Then reattach the keel with a flexible caulk like LifeCaulk, Sikkens, or 3M products and leave it alone.

Anyone had any experience with the West Systems Flexible Epoxy Resin for the hull to keel joint??

[KP44]

Originally Posted by hamburking

You may want to consider the value of the boat before you proceed, as this repair is going to be costly both in money and time. The cost of repair may exceed the value of the boat.

These repairs are labor intensive. If you're hiring someone to do the work, it might be VERY costly.
But if you do the work yourself, the materials do not cost a lot.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by hamburking

What if he were to drill out all the bad glass, and fill with epoxy. Smooth and paint.

It would not be a great repair, but maybe he could get a few more years out of the boat.

Thoughts?

The stub looks bad, is not horrible expensive to drop the keel and rebuild stub , keel bolts etc... if you are handy with resin and cloth... i dont know the boat value ,, probably in a bigger size is really expensive,, al depend who do the job....if is my boat i dropp the keel and do it properly...