Is the Market Really this Bad ?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by jostalli

If you purchase a boat in europe attorneys are required to complete the transaction. I was told it is because of the issues you describe. This is of course in addition to the broker commission.

Lawyers? Why? (Yes, I read that post).

The more expensive the boat and the more ignorant the future owner, the more need for intermediaries. This is also when one looks at a boat as an investment. The other proposition is when brokers/lawyers are required under a local law. Too bad for the country and her citizens then. Over-regulated states are very expensive places to be.

I say buy boats in countries where people are honest and governments leave it up to the parties how to facilitate, secure, and form their contracts.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I wonder if cats are doing better than monos? While trolling the multihull brokers sites I notice lots of boats that are under contract or sold. (...)

Indirectly, maybe so.

Cats tend to be:
- more expensive, (?)
- fewer, (?)
- etc..

If so (?), the combination of factors, in a specific market, may make them more liquid.

But this unlikely because of how many hulls they have.

b.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Indirectly, maybe so.

Cats tend to be:
- more expensive, (?)
- fewer, (?)
- etc..

If so (?), the combination of factors, in a specific market, may make them more liquid.

But this unlikely because of how many hulls they have.

b.

I thought I read that cats continue to grow as a portion of the overall cruiser market. Still small percentage though. Maybe more people are crossing over from "the dark side". Wait, did I say that right?

[M/V Moonchild]

WE have a saying in the Yacht Brokerage business "The price, in our opinion adequately compensates for attention needed". My professional opinion is that this is the case here. There is a quote for $ 9,000. for a new deck (Catwalks only, coachroof is not teaked)) the cockpit teak is renewed .. beautifully. Skilled capable hands can rebuild the motor in St Maarten in situ on her mounts for under three thousand dollars. The real challenge to selling this boat is and has been context of use as it relates to location ... vessel too small for Caribbean cruiser/boat shoppers. also a salient fact is that there are a Helluva lotta boats lying closier than the Caribbean to buyers than this fine capable proven repainted re rigged re-fitted HR 352. And lastly, to buy a boat in the Caribbean is for most a leap of faith. Pre surveying prior to travel is one answer. The last thought I'll leave you with : even seasoned experiences Yachtsmen are often if not predominantly, first time buyers in the Caribbean .

[rockbottom]

Sure, you bet, lowest price they get is now...especially in north america.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by M/V Moonchild

WE have a saying in the Yacht Brokerage business "The price, in our opinion adequately compensates for attention needed".

LOL... that of course would be answered by anyone who may have been in the car business by, "Don't try and snow the snowman".

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I thought I read that cats continue to grow as a portion of the overall cruiser market. Still small percentage though. Maybe more people are crossing over from "the dark side". Wait, did I say that right?

Back ten years ago when we started sailing out, there were single multis in the anchorage here. Now it is 50/50 most of the time.

I think there is a clear shift towards catamarans and I think people are making the right choice: cats are a way better cruising platform for most cruising dreams. They are also much easier boats for people without former sailing background or formation which seems to be what the vast majority of cruisers are. I think it is all good: safer and more comfortable boats for the majority cruiser.

At the same time, there is an endless supply of older small and utterly unsafe / uncomfortable boats that can be had for next to nothing - which is good for any dreamer who wants to go far and simply can not want wait any longer.

For the thru & thru purist there are beautiful brand new monohulls of all sorts. So, again, if one is a 'go out, get wet' sailor, there is no problem in finding the right medium.

Everybody may be happy. Bad market is after all the best moment to get a boat (cheap) and go sailing!

Cheers,
b.

[Kettlewell]

Back ten years ago when we started sailing out, there were single multis in the anchorage here. Now it is 50/50 most of the time.

That's not the case in most areas. Maybe in the Caribbean you will get up to 25% in some harbors, but that is pretty rare. In New England cats are still pretty rare and the typical boat in an anchorage is 10-20 years old or older, according to my informal surveys. I frequently anchor in harbors where there are no cats at all. I suppose it depends on where you are cruising.

My personal opinion is that the peak market most of us will ever see in our lifetime for boats was 2007 and the new trend will be smaller, simpler, and fixing up older boats. Oh, sure there are some people (but a lot fewer) with plenty of money who will buy the big fancy ones, but the bulk of the market will be much more downmarket--which is what things were like back in the 60s through the early 80s. The housing boom and all that home equity looking for something to spend it on was what fueled the rapid increase in size, cost, and complexity. The folks who can still afford those things are ageing and will gradually sell off to the next age level down and eventually they will be on the market for cheap where ordinary folks who just love boating can buy them.

It is all cyclical. Some day there will be another boom again, but you have to be pretty young right now to see it when it gets here.

[Rhapsody-NS27]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

...and build your own database. Can be done. And some guessing will be out of the equation.

Access to that YM historical is fine when you are dealing in many types of boats. But when it is a specific type, you can DIY.

As I'm looking for my first boat, I've narrowed down what I'm looking. Of course, next month, it might change but for the moment, I'm really considering certain Alberg designed boats. They have some nice lines and seem to have good reviews/support.

I have 50 days from today when I fly back to the US and about a week after, I start a road trip to take a look at some boats.

[Kettlewell]

Alberg designed some nice boats, but if you can keep an open mind you will other craft with similar capabilities on the market that might interest you, and that is when you can start to find bargains in this market. I suggest searching for type of boat and size range rather than locking in on a particular designer or builder, but that is just me. There is nothing wrong with wanting a particular boat, but it narrows your options drastically.

[barnakiel]

Yep. I think one should look for the right boat - the one that will do what you ask it for. A racing boat to go racing, a voluminous boat if you want to liveaboard, a pretty boat if you want a marina queen (I mean it - looks do count, sometimes more than any other factor).

And it is important, as the poster said above, to keep an open mind. There are many good boats and many pretty ones, one never knows what he finds when looking for a boat. It is a buyer's market and there is no need to hurry. Have a look at the potentials then stroll the docks and watch the other boats. You may be lucky to find a better thing than you ever imagined at a price that is just right.

b.

[DeepFrz]

Sand crab, have you been watching the sales for quite some time. I have noticed that many brokers will keep boats that have sold listed for quite a long time. Boats that have deals pending can sit for many months listed that way. There doesn't really seem to be a timeline on when they remove things like "NEW" when they remove the sold boats from their listings. Just a heads up on that.

[Sand crab]

Deepfrz, The 2 largest multi dealers in the world are The Catamaran Co. and the Multihull Co. Both are based in Ft Lauderdale and both have many other offices and facilities nationally and internationally. I've noticed that these guys are straight shooters and keep their listing status updated. Aeroyacht is another. Browse these sights and you will see a fair amount of under contract boats. They both also have sold pages but these go back a ways. I agree with you about the other unnamed brokers who never update. There are still new to be built 2011 boats listed all over YW. I bet you can find new 2010s there too.

[cheoah]

I bought my 88 Crealock with 4500 hrs on a Yanmar 3HM35F. Did oil analysis (with fresh oil, but run first) and it came back clean. Engine is high compression, and starts by practically looking at the starter button. Engine compartment was immaculate, with mounts, exhaust elbows, and other important stuff changed at regular intervals or upon failure.

I think that if all these things are in order, and you get a sense from the owners overall approach to maintenance that the oil was changed regularly, then it can really represent some value. People are just scared of the hours, but properly maintained, we all know a diesel will last. My PO was a second generation German immigrant and kept the most detailed records on EVERYTHING. In many ways, I bought the man, not the boat, and anytime I work on the boat, I ask myself, "how would Carl do it?" I'm reasonably handy, and my staff might say particular, but Carl raised the bar!

The engine is the main reason I could afford my boat, besides the boat market in SW FL was soft, and the age of boat >15 yrs and my credit score very good. I hope some other sailor jumps on that HR if it is what it is. That's a very appealing size for a singlehander or couple. What else is keeping would be cruisers from moving on a quality boat like this, or on my immaculate Crealock 34 back in 2010? I sold my Cape Dory 30 six months ago and got nearly what I paid in 2005. I was a two boat owner for a year, and I will never do that again. Funny thing was, I had it listed last winter for around 15K, trying to sell it myself, and two people passed it up. The broker listed for 25K and it went within two months for over 20K.

[Capt Phil]

Excellent advice, cheoah... if folks took more time to understand and appreciate the good and bad of the PO, a lot of heartbreak in the boat buying business could be avoided. The last two boats we had, we researched the PO's carefully and made realistic offers based on not only age and condition but what we found out about the sellers and owners previous to them. In our case, the previous owner was a drunk and had to have the boat brought back from Mexico which was in deplorable shape but we had the time and paid less than $100K for a 50 foot Transpac which took nearly a year to put back into decent shape. Lived aboard, cruised off and on for 5 years up and down the left coast and sold her for $150K. It depends on your circumstances but more on the care the boat has had. We purchased her through a broker who was less than forthcoming about condition and refused to tell us who the previous owners were but we researched the ID of two previous owners on our own and had a good idea how they cared for her. We offered less than 50% of asking price and were firm on the offer which was finally accepted with a lot of arm twisting from the lender, I'm sure.
Those contributing to this thread have valuable experience and are knowledgeable about the current market conditions which do vary around the country and the world.
I'm not so sure that brokers at the time were all that helpful generally as there were many buyers roaming arond with acceptable credit and brokers were looking for easy pickings and just pushing for volume sales. I hope that the current market conditions have weeded out those looking for a quick buck and the brokers who look to establish long term relationships with buyers and sellers are the ones remaining.
I certainly agree that $ invested in upkeep and upgrades are very difficult to recapture on a sale but the same is true in real estate. The availability of $ has really brought reality back to the pricing of boats and real estate. Cash is certainly King in the market today. Capt Phil