From boating virgins to living aboard - so many questions

[VNCruzer]

Originally Posted by Bizzieliz

Hi again guys.
Thanks for your input. Just to clarify -
You're offering good lifestyle advice that we understand, but we're really here for technical advice about boats. We've lived as expats on mainland China for 7 years and we're intimately connected with the geopolitical challenges in Asia and the other challenges associated with living abroad. Sorry we didn't make that more clear. But we have almost NO idea where to start on the whole transitioning to the liveaboard lifestyle. We specifically came to a cruising forum because we'll probably not have the option of being in a marina, so power and water generation will be a real concern for us if we make this transition. We know you're the experts, and we want to be connected to the community.

With your 7+- years on mainland it's an assumption then you both are fluent in mandarin and working on improving cantonese fluency... That will play an important part as you need to seek out the local go to maritime expert technicians to assist you when things break ...your monthly budget will not afford using the expat's yachting community marina technician experts services.... Simpson Marine has offices in HK and throughout SE Asia... Try to hang around and ask questions with someone there that you feel can connect to... Learn the legislative documentation way of things in HK, purchase contracts, pre purchase surveys, proper insurance, and permits for livaboard, that's info you need before selecting any particular boat. Then you can start your boat search.

[Starkey]

Can you guys offer any info that can help us budget more accurately for boat maintenance? We split all of our expenses into a bunch of different categories (we budgeted insurance and legal stuff separately), but $1000/mo for boat maintenance was just a very rough guess. From your comments it sounds like it's a bit low. Should we double it? Add 50%? What info do we need to gather to build an accurate estimate? What are the biggest categories within your own maintenance budgets?

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Starkey

Can you guys offer any info that can help us budget more accurately for boat maintenance? We split all of our expenses into a bunch of different categories (we budgeted insurance and legal stuff separately), but $1000/mo for boat maintenance was just a very rough guess. From your comments it sounds like it's a bit low. Should we double it? Add 50%? What info do we need to gather to build an accurate estimate? What are the biggest categories within your own maintenance budgets?

This is a hard question to answer but I am sure someone will say 10% of the value of the boat. But think about that for a minute and that number does not make sense.

The best answer I have seen is the spread sheet on Morgan's Cloud, https://www.morganscloud.com/2014/07...ging-sailboat/. You have to pay for the website but it is worth the minimal cost.

The spreadsheet calculates maintenance cost with a few big variables, with the big one being displacement, followed by boat complexity, how much work you will do vs having to pay for work, and what shape you wish to keep the boat.

One of the assumptions is that the boat is new, or if used, brought back to as new condition. Boat ownership is assumed to be 10 years. This is for keeping the boat up only and does not include fuel, insurance, depreciation, dockage/moorage, etc.

Later,
Dan

[Augi]

Originally Posted by Starkey

Thanks for the advice.
Our plan from day one was to be prepared to lose everything we spend on a boat and to have a room we can live out of in our office as a backup.
I like the idea of adding onto that an expectation that we would live off the boat for the first year or so to acclimatize ourselves to the rigors of boat life.
We also tossed around the idea of buying a really small boat initially to see how we like it, but selling it to buy the boat we actually want sounded unwise. Should we have stuck to that plan?

If you don't mind it not working out, then learn as much as you can in advance then jump in with both feet.

A great suggestion already made on another post, is maybe you can find a boat to rent to live a board in Hong Kong that allows you to get out of the lease on relatively short notice or maybe the lease is short. After that experience you will know if you want to continue to live on a boat or not in Hong Kong. If you want to continue to live on a boat in Hong Kong you will know at that point whether a specific boat will work or not work, where it works for it to be moored, docked or anchored, the cost, type and specs of boat, etc, etc.

Obviously, you can opt to live in the room off your office, while you continue the research of living on a boat in Hong Kong. I don't see any upside in rushing to buy a boat until you get to Hong Kong, the same as there would be no point to rush to buy an apartment/condo until you get there.

[ussvdharma]

Live ashore...consistently visit marinas, get to know people there, join local yacht club....act as crew on members boats....visit members who are living aboard their boat...in 6-8 months you will know what appeals to you on a boat and you will have some experience...BUT remember if you are going to sail, especially in Hong Kong area, you have a lot of things to learn.,


Best I can say is dont buy big boat dont buy any boat till you have done above and know what you are getting into. I wish I had done that before I went cruising, I single handed large 46' boat and eventually traded down to 32' boat, but then there was only me. However I did sail all over on the 46' for years.


de W7KFI

[VNCruzer]

Originally Posted by Bizzieliz

Hi again guys.
Thanks for your input. Just to clarify -
You're offering good lifestyle advice that we understand, but we're really here for technical advice about boats. We've lived as expats on mainland China for 7 years and we're intimately connected with the geopolitical challenges in Asia and the other challenges associated with living abroad. Sorry we didn't make that more clear. But we have almost NO idea where to start on the whole transitioning to the liveaboard lifestyle. We specifically came to a cruising forum because we'll probably not have the option of being in a marina, so power and water generation will be a real concern for us if we make this transition. We know you're the experts, and we want to be connected to the community.

I think you just made your own point, you dont know what you dont know... So you need to learn by self researching articles online and all the previous postings you can find here ... YOU need take the time and effort to look... the community here has already posted indepth info on all your questions on the forum... up to you to go research... the liveaboard community does help those who show they have put some realistic sweat equity into their plan... so far you and your husband have not shown much of that... best to tell a better story on your experiences and capabilities because you have left a lot of gaps... you simply looking for tech advice, then its all here already spend your own time finding the articles rather then sitting back and asking it be hand delivered to you... 350 sq ft / 32sq m apartment on land is still a big living space compared to living aboard a 40+- ft sailboat...

You are not going to be living very long on a boat relying solely on solar power, you will need diesel propulsion to backup your elec system usage... updating an older sailboat thats been in HK area for years with in your price budget range is going need a lot of refitting to be reliable... So price what it will cost for hauling and surveying, for doing a bottom job, for general engine servicing of replacing all the consumables, for rigging replacement, for sail replacement.... go stretch your feet and find the marinas and find pout who is living aboard as working expats going ashore to an office and talk with them about costs and the daily headaches and what systems they feel are important to maintaining a camping lifestyle on the water... You need to put some sweat equity into this.... The you tube sailing lifestyles are entertaining... but you are looking to jump into this probably at one of the worst locales... What is your ability and willingness to live without air-conditioning, what are plans for servicing pumping out the head, are you both saying you thinking can just leave the boat unattended for days if you feel you need a "break" on shore, have you researched security aspects of leaving unattended, you have still told little about yourselves, but asking a lot to be hand fed to you... go buy the books online that have the infor you asking for... if you cant figure out how or which ones, you definitely not ready to be self sufficient expat liveaboards in HK fragrant Harbor. I am just trying to be as objective as I can... The idea of doing and reality of doing ...

[VNCruzer]

Originally Posted by Starkey

Can you guys offer any info that can help us budget more accurately for boat maintenance? We split all of our expenses into a bunch of different categories (we budgeted insurance and legal stuff separately), but $1000/mo for boat maintenance was just a very rough guess. From your comments it sounds like it's a bit low. Should we double it? Add 50%? What info do we need to gather to build an accurate estimate? What are the biggest categories within your own maintenance budgets?

What are your ages and what life experiences or hobbies or interests have shared or participated in the past or currently doing that prepare you for this? Have you gone caravaning, RVing, camping for extended periods? lived without constant 24/7 electricity and water?

sailing performance, day sailing, living aboard the boats you mentioned do not correlate, pick one... thinking can day sail your liveaboard boat? preparing boat for that after 5 days at anchor commuting to shore, focusing on your day jobs/ profession and then stowing securely for an outing and then things break ... what's your contingency plan for the unexpected?

Honestly go search for offerings for liveaboard a junk houseboats, or better yet see if you can prepare for and offer yourselves as boat sitters for those liveaboards or others that want or need that service....

[VNCruzer]

Originally Posted by Starkey

My wife and I are boating virgins. We have been building a fairly high pressure career together for the last several years and have started to realize we don't have much of a life outside of work. As we explore the changes we want to make, our conversations focus around owning something instead of renting, being close to nature, working with our hands, and inviting friends into our home. Unfortunately, for our career we will need to move to Hong Kong where a 300 sqft apartment sells for about 1 mil USD. This (especially my desire to have something to constantly fix and tinker with) led us to the idea of boating through stumbling across SV Delos on youtube.
With that out of the way, I have a ton of questions for this community.
We are too ignorant to know what we want in terms of boat choice but will only have about 80 hours and $1000 per month budgeted for maintenance (post refit). We'll live tied up to a mooring ball in a typhoon shelter and need to commute to shore at least 3 or 4 days a week. We would probably need to make all of our own power and water.
How practical is this? Can you maintain a decent sized sailboat on that budget or should we adjust it? How much time does it take to bring a dinghy 500m to shore and tie it up for the day?
We have taken an interest in an Islander 44 on the cheap end and a Mason 43 or CT-47 on the higher end. What does the community think of these boats? Are they suitable as daysailers that would have to ride out a couple of typhoons (on a mooring ball in a shelter) each year?
Any thoughts on accommodations? We would be sleeping 2 on weekdays, maybe more on weekends, and needing to seat up to 6 in the cockpit.
Any thoughts on performance? Will we care about performance if we're only sailing to nearby islands on weekends when the weather is good?
Can we string up solar panels all the way down the sides of the boat or is that going to make problems?
Those of you who have firsthand experience with electric drives (I've already heard from ppl who have diesels, love them, and will never part with them), do you recommend it for daysailing or not? How powerful is your motor and what performance do you get in choppy seas? I ask these questions because I can get solar panels and lithium batteries for about a tenth what they typically cost; storage and generation are only limited by space. Also, diesel/gas cost almost $10/gal there.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read through my situation and questions. If you can answer one or more questions, your response is greatly appreciated!

(I realize bunching everything together is not the best way to get a thorough answer to each question. At the moment, though, I'm not even sure if I'm asking the right questions.)

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/islander-44
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/mason-43
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/ct-47
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/ct-47-ctr


Here you can compare yourself, the basic data is there to determine the characteristics... if you dont understand these metrics then you need to learn and study rather then googling to be hand fed info...

[darylat8750]

I suggest that cost (both initial and ongoing) per square foot of living area would be considerably less for a power boat than a sail boat. Maybe start with a power boat and have a sailing dinghy. Is air conditioning important in Hong Kong? The only way to have that from a boat you really need to be plugged in. If not then you will need to run a genset full time. That is VERY expensive.

[Starkey]

I'm intrigued by the assumptions about what I don't know or haven't researched before. I had figured it's only standard internet trolling, but I now realize I need to communicate a bit more directly about my situation.
So far, the only information provided here that has been remotely close to new to me is that there's a chance even HK insurance companies won't insure boats in HK. I really need to look into that and am very appreciative. It seems likely and may affect our plans.

I don't know much at all by my standards, but the wild assumptions in this discussion board about what I haven't researched makes me feel like I have a better education than I can possibly believe! If I didn't know already the information I've seen here, it would be an absurdist nightmare of a disaster for me to think about buying a boat. Let's assume I've exhausted the resources that can be readily gathered by merely reading information already posted on the web. I'm looking for more specific info while I wait for this Covid-19 fiasco to end so I can travel to a place in the world where boats and boaters actually exist.

I have spent a few hundred hours over the last year familiarizing myself as much as I can in that short time with terminology, with various people's accounts of their experiences, with the unique challenges facing cruisers. I have researched the situation in HK as extensively as I can before I'm there, and I'm aware of the obvious fact that having direct conversations with boaters in HK is the only way to get crucial info I will need about the unique situation in HK. I didn't ask anything about HK because I expect that I will have to get that information after moving there (yes, before buying a boat, of course!).

I don't ask the other question that everyone seems to want to answer (Will I enjoy it and stick it out despite hardships?) because I know myself much better than I know boating. I didn't grow up rich/entitled, and the attitude I learned in childhood has stuck (at least with regard to comfort). The way things are is the way they are - you deal and adapt.
In life you can discard comfort to purchase adventure, and I've never regretted doing that. I have lived in the tropics for 5 years without air conditioning. I haven't had an RV, but I have lived out of the back of a moving truck in winter. I have camped extensively in harsh environments where survival is something you have to make for yourself because a mistake means death. I have rarely given a second thought to being uncomfortable or inconvenienced by my circumstances or by the unusual demands of a living arrangement. If something needs doing, I just do it.
I'm starting to realize that this approach must be unusual, and I owe it to you to provide that information rather than taking it for granted.

Thank you all so much for your time, for welcoming us to the community, and for your heart-felt concern over the discomfort, inconvenience, and danger a stranger would face if he were to jump into boating rashly!

[Fore and Aft]

Starkey you sound like a Bear Grylls type but what about the Mrs?Even Bear Grylls is not crazy/man enough to live on a yacht with his wife, instead he has a very large Dutch barge safely moored on a canal. As you get more involved with this community you will find plenty of single men who "had" a Mrs....... The actually owning and operating a yacht is the easy bit.
As for maintenance budgets, that is such an open ended question. It all depends on what type of person you are? Plenty of my clients do zero maintenance then just take a big hit in price when they finally sell the boat.
Maybe you could pitch a tent on the roof of the star ferry's for a week to get an idea of live aboard life? LOL
Cheers and Good Luck

[Starkey]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Starkey you sound like a Bear Grylls type but what about the Mrs?Even Bear Grylls is not crazy/man enough to live on a yacht with his wife, instead he has a very large Dutch barge safely moored on a canal. As you get more involved with this community you will find plenty of single men who "had" a Mrs....... The actually owning and operating a yacht is the easy bit.
As for maintenance budgets, that is such an open ended question. It all depends on what type of person you are? Plenty of my clients do zero maintenance then just take a big hit in price when they finally sell the boat.
Maybe you could pitch a tent on the roof of the star ferry's for a week to get an idea of live aboard life? LOL
Cheers and Good Luck

I like the way you put that. I do have to be mindful to pitch it to her as 8 liter cold showers, sweaty nights (and days), and more time spent fixing things than actually sailing (not because those things are always true but because low expectations are a necessity).
We'll do up a budget to match a year or several of having an apartment on land and a boat just for the weekends and see what boats best fit that budget. That way we can always end the apartment's lease early if it turns out she loves the oddities of boat life.

[bcboomer]

Regarding your boat selection, I would take a look at any on-line support groups for each. You can usually find what weaknesses to look for that way.

[JPA Cate]

if it turns out she loves the oddities of boat life.

This is something you can help, if your attitude is to help make it fun for her. Imo, what helps women (who range with 'putting up with it' through 'helping him with it', to actually enjoying sailing and living aboard) is the combination of being intrinsically fun, being appreciated for the effort she puts in, and of gaining competence as a sailor. But, if it is not fun for her, just exactly why would she want to do it? (It is an issue requiring communication between the two of you.)

For the actual sailing part, if your good lady is interested in sailing lessons, encourage her to take them separately from yourself. If you take lessons, also, pick a different instructor, even if it's from the same school. Each of your experience will be slightly different, but the sum of knowledge for you as a couple will be greater than if you were to do it together, as each teacher will present the material through his or her own filter. It sets up a situation where you can teach each other, too--good for both your confidence.

Ann

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by Starkey

I'm intrigued by the assumptions about what I don't know or haven't researched before. I had figured it's only standard internet trolling, but I now realize I need to communicate a bit more directly about my situation.
So far, the only information provided here that has been remotely close to new to me is that there's a chance even HK insurance companies won't insure boats in HK. I really need to look into that and am very appreciative. It seems likely and may affect our plans.

I don't know much at all by my standards, but the wild assumptions in this discussion board about what I haven't researched makes me feel like I have a better education than I can possibly believe! If I didn't know already the information I've seen here, it would be an absurdist nightmare of a disaster for me to think about buying a boat. Let's assume I've exhausted the resources that can be readily gathered by merely reading information already posted on the web. I'm looking for more specific info while I wait for this Covid-19 fiasco to end so I can travel to a place in the world where boats and boaters actually exist.

I have spent a few hundred hours over the last year familiarizing myself as much as I can in that short time with terminology, with various people's accounts of their experiences, with the unique challenges facing cruisers. I have researched the situation in HK as extensively as I can before I'm there, and I'm aware of the obvious fact that having direct conversations with boaters in HK is the only way to get crucial info I will need about the unique situation in HK. I didn't ask anything about HK because I expect that I will have to get that information after moving there (yes, before buying a boat, of course!).

I don't ask the other question that everyone seems to want to answer (Will I enjoy it and stick it out despite hardships?) because I know myself much better than I know boating. I didn't grow up rich/entitled, and the attitude I learned in childhood has stuck (at least with regard to comfort). The way things are is the way they are - you deal and adapt.
In life you can discard comfort to purchase adventure, and I've never regretted doing that. I have lived in the tropics for 5 years without air conditioning. I haven't had an RV, but I have lived out of the back of a moving truck in winter. I have camped extensively in harsh environments where survival is something you have to make for yourself because a mistake means death. I have rarely given a second thought to being uncomfortable or inconvenienced by my circumstances or by the unusual demands of a living arrangement. If something needs doing, I just do it.
I'm starting to realize that this approach must be unusual, and I owe it to you to provide that information rather than taking it for granted.

Thank you all so much for your time, for welcoming us to the community, and for your heart-felt concern over the discomfort, inconvenience, and danger a stranger would face if he were to jump into boating rashly!

That is good information and takes care of any concerns I had for you. My wife would NOT live anywhere in Hong Kong without aircondioning.