Capsize Ratio's

[Celestialsailor]

I agree...It's not a matter of going back to old technology at all. It's use the modern technology we have properly. Obviously some mistakes have been made... Valiant Yachts trying a fire retardant in resin or HR not properly coring for a year or so. Having said that other manufacturers simply used gel-coat and cabinetry to hide slip-shot methods of building a boat. It does not mean that F/G construction is inferior. That's not what Neil is saying. F/G has been around 50 years in boat "production". Likely to stay for at least another 30 I would imagine.
There is a reason Steel and Aluminum is seldom used as a building media. Although they have superior strength, they tend to be proned to higher maintenance and the average Joe six pack cannot or will not rise to that maintenance schedule. Hence F/G has become the easier, softer way.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Polux

Technology only worsens things because the ones that use it are a bunch of retards and complexity is too much for their weak brains.

Concur :P
You can't beat the facts, but it's possible to do it right too. Just by using male mold, wooden core, better resins & fabrics, and skilled labour, thou that costs some..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Concur :P
You can't beat the facts, but it's possible to do it right too. Just by using male mold, wooden core, better resins & fabrics, and skilled labour, thou that costs some..

For instance, regarding balsa cored hulls ("A few builders decided to go whole hog and use balsa for the entire hull, with disastrous results. One cannot use balsa underwater and not expect it fill up with water, which is what they all did"), look at Dehler that is using them for decades. Do you ever heard about a Dehler with a hull delamination on rotted balsa core?

Their high value in the used market reflects the structural soundness and quality of their building techniques.

I would still prefer an Airex or similar core but there are lots of well built boats with balsa cored hulls that don't give any problem, I mean 30 year old boats. Look at old Tartans for instance.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Polux

For instance, regarding balsa cored hulls ("A few builders decided to go whole hog and use balsa for the entire hull, with disastrous results. One cannot use balsa underwater and not expect it fill up with water, which is what they all did"), look at Dehler that is using them for decades. Do you ever heard about a Dehler with a hull delamination on rotted balsa core?

The Sundeer's are also cored under the waterline without any problems. It's just that some shady manufacturers are only in it for the money and then there's lots of people who keep pointing at those rotten apples trying to prove their silly points in order to sell books, become popular or whatever.

Most methods of boat construction are good -if- -done- -right-. Blame the builder, not the method.

cheers,
Nick.

[TeddyDiver]

Mostly agree with you with some preservations thou. With wooden core, endgrain balsa, strip planking or cold molded, the main issue is barrier coating. It's the best insurance against rot if some damage happens, and eventually it will. Foam cores are ok in places where can be pretty sure wont get too much cyclic loading. Just IMHO..

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Mostly agree with you with some preservations thou. With wooden core, endgrain balsa, strip planking or cold molded, the main issue is barrier coating. It's the best insurance against rot if some damage happens, and eventually it will. Foam cores are ok in places where can be pretty sure wont get too much cyclic loading. Just IMHO..

If balsa is done right, every small piece of balsa is completely encapsulated by resin and thus only damaged pieces can get wet.

99% of all cases of wet core in decks are caused by holes drilled for mounting extra hardware without protecting the core. I think 9 out of 10 skip that tep, even professionals.

cheers,
Nick.

[neilpride]

The only way to achieve full resin saturation at the core voids or chanels is by vacuum bag and resin infusion, do it by hand is almost imposible and labor intensive , so the benefit to get a cheap hull is missed if do it properly by hand , here the key is the infusion.

[TeddyDiver]

That's true if done in female mold..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

The only way to achieve full resin saturation at the core voids or chanels is by vacuum bag and resin infusion, do it by hand is almost imposible and labor intensive , so the benefit to get a cheap hull is missed if do it properly by hand , here the key is the infusion.

I agree it is the best technique and that it deserves to be weld in account when you buy a boat.

Of course this is just a part of the picture.

The way keel and shroud forces are redistributed by the hull is another important factor. The best solution for a light and strong boat seems to be a carbon or stainless steel structure that connected to the keel and shrouds take all forces and redistribute them by the hull. I would also give a good look at this point also.

[s/v Jedi]

I had not realized it had to be cheap too. Strong, light and cheap, those 3 don't come together I think. You can get any combination of 2 out oc those 3 though...

cheers,
Nick.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I had not realized it had to be cheap too. Strong, light and cheap, those 3 don't come together I think. You can get any combination of 2 out oc those 3 though...

cheers,
Nick.

I guess you are right if we talk about the cheapest boats you can have but cheap is a relative concept (as light). For instance you can have all the things I have mentioned and a light and strong boat if you pick a Salona. Of course it will not cost the same price of a Beneteau Oceanis but will not be very different in price from a First.

You will pay some more for an all epoxy Salona and even some more if you want it even lighter and stronger (bulkheads in basalt) but the final price will be very far away from the one of an X-Yacht that is built using the same techniques.

Even if I would not use the word cheap, I would say that for what offers it is not expensive. The same can be said about the Pogo 10.50 (and 12.50) about the new JPK 38 or about the wauquiez Opium 39, all light and strong boats.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Polux

I guess you are right if we talk about the cheapest boats you can have but cheap is a relative concept (as light). For instance you can have all the things I have mentioned and a light and strong boat if you pick a Salona. Of course it will not cost the same price of a Beneteau Oceanis but will not be very different in price from a First.

You will pay some more for an all epoxy Salona and even some more if you want it even lighter and stronger (bulkheads in basalt) but the final price will be very far away from the one of an X-Yacht that is built using the same techniques.

Even if I would not use the word cheap, I would say that for what offers it is not expensive. The same can be said about the Pogo 10.50 (and 12.50) about the new JPK 38 or about the wauquiez Opium 39, all light and strong boats.

Well.... I think our boat isn't expensive for what it offers either, but not many of the CF cheap club would call it cheap

cheers,
Nick.