Capsize Ratio's

[Polux]

Originally Posted by kefroeschner

Polux:

Read the latest Cruising World, Sail, or anything and you will find that the three boats (out of 6) finishing the latest leg on the decks of steamers are BROKEN. They are not avoiding pirates -- that was one or two legs ago.

Your comment: "Regarding the VOR 70 you are showing a lot of ignorance: They were put in cargoships not on account of seaworthiness but PIRATE attacks. " is demeaning and insulting.

Sorry, not to mean to insult you, but what you say is not true. On the last leg, and that was Miami to Lisbon, all boats arrived safely after being hit by a tropical storm. Not only they arrive all but with very small difference between them.

You can believe that. I saw them arriving.

[TeddyDiver]

There's obviously some misunderstanding what is static stability vs dynamic stability. Beamy boat having high initial stability in calm seas will, by it's very nature, follow every wave contour coming from the broad side. In step waves this means listing with the wave up to a point where the "reserve" stability is no more and all needed is a gentle push to tilts that modern miracle over AVS (my regards to "modern" NA's out there). Same thing can be observed when a fellow boater (making waves) passes a row of other anchored boats.. just look what kind of boats roll most.
BR Teddy

[Polux]

Originally Posted by kefroeschner

If you google "pogo sailboat" you get this web-site:

www.minitransat650.com/html/pogo_sailboat.html

It contains these quotes from the builders literature:

"The Pogo is a racing and cruising sailboat created and built for the open sea. It is meant for owners wanting a performance cruiser, which is very seaworthy, ..."

"In the 99 Mini Transat a Pogo has been rolled 4 times as he was laying a hull (bad seas were building, many sailors withdraw with damage, out of 70 only 16 did not stop) and still the mast was standing.Then the sailor set a storm jib and he just saw the speed climbing into the 20 knots and then the boat pitchpoled. This was finally enough to break the mast, ..."

You keep confusing things. This is not the Pogo site. The Pogo site is this one:

Chantier naval STRUCTURES, constructeur des voiliers POGO (site officiel) :: STRUCTURES Shipyard, construction of sailing boat POGO (Oficial website) | Pogo 10.50, Pogo 12.50, Pogo 40s2, Pogo 50, Pogo 30

The site you are referring is the unofficial site of a racing class, the mini-racer class.

minitransat650.com - Mini 650 unofficial - Mini Transat

On that race class there are prototypes and several brands of production racers among them mini Pogos. We are talking about 22 ft boats that weight about 1000kg and yes the Mini racers, Pogo or otherwise are incredibly seaworthy boats for 22ft boats.

You are amazed for a 22ft boat to be rolled on a big storm? Instead should you not be amazed by the fact that all those little boats to have survived that storm? Even the one that was pitch pooled? And more that that: that in the middle of that storm 18 guys did not take defensive tactics and keep on racing?

That and the fact that thousands of 22ft minis have crossed the Atlantic racing without problems should be a clear evidence of those boats seaworthiness.

Even if the minis are very seaworthy when I said this:

"The Pogo is a racing and cruising sailboat created and built for the open sea. It is meant for owners wanting a performance cruiser, which is very seaworthy, ..."

I was referring to the line of cruisers from Pogo, the one I was being talking about, the 10,50 and the 12.50 that are much bigger and much more seaworthy boats.

When I was talking about racing Pogos created and built for the open sea I was talking about 40class Pogo racers, the ones that inspired the two cruising boats, obviously not about 22ft boats.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

There's obviously some misunderstanding what is static stability vs dynamic stability. Beamy boat having high initial stability in calm seas will, by it's very nature, follow every wave contour coming from the broad side. In step waves this means listing with the wave up to a point where the "reserve" stability is no more and all needed is a gentle push to tilts that modern miracle over AVS (my regards to "modern" NA's out there). Same thing can be observed when a fellow boater (making waves) passes a row of other anchored boats.. just look what kind of boats roll most.
BR Teddy

Sure, that's why 40class racers and open 60's are capsizing all the time.

I have already explained to you that it don't work that way and that in a step wave the boat fall to the bottom and does not stand at the middle of it in a magic equilibrium. When they fall to the bottom a full keel boat or a boat with a large keel will trip on the keel and will tend to roll.

I had even posted drawings explaining that, taken from a book written from one of the greatest sailors of all times, one that had experience with both types of boats.

I found funny that you think you know better than the best NA.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Polux

Sure, that's why 40class racers and open 60's are capsizing all the time.
And that is relevant how? Like it was replied earlier they have other shortcomings..
I have already explained to you that it don't work that way and that in a step wave the boat fall to the bottom and does not stand at the middle of it in a magic equilibrium. When they fall to the bottom a full keel boat or a boat with a large keel will trip on the keel and will tend to roll.
And beamy fin keeler drops on deck..

I had even posted drawings explaining that, taken from a book written from one of the greatest sailors of all times, one that had experience with both types of boats.
And I've read other books with other drawings so...

I found funny that you think you know better than the best NA.

No I don't, but we have obviously different best NA
See my comments written red
BR Teddy

[Polux]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

No I don't, but we have obviously different best NA
.

Well, I am very curious who are in your opinion the best actual NA? I don't mean one, but just some names that are representative of the top of the crop.

[TeddyDiver]

They answer themself if they happen trip in this discussion. But you earlier mentioned some research of Wolfston. Any chance to get some hard data of their findings and how it was done?.. to keep this conversation intelligent..
I myself am away from home and can quote only my memory, but when I get home I'm trying to find the time to load some "funny" pictures here
BR Teddy

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Polux

Sure, that's why 40class racers and open 60's are capsizing all the time.

I have already explained to you that it don't work that way and that in a step wave the boat fall to the bottom and does not stand at the middle of it in a magic equilibrium. When they fall to the bottom a full keel boat or a boat with a large keel will trip on the keel and will tend to roll.

I had even posted drawings explaining that, taken from a book written from one of the greatest sailors of all times, one that had experience with both types of boats.

I found funny that you think you know better than the best NA.

It is arguable whether Taberly was the best sailor of all time (my vote would be for Knox-Johnston). And even if he was that doesn't make him a sailboat designer.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Polux

Well, I am very curious who are in your opinion the best actual NA? I don't mean one, but just some names that are representative of the top of the crop.

Lapworth, Perry, Lee.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Adelie

In what context did he say newer boats were safer than older boats?
In some ways or in all ways safer?
All new boats, most new boats or some new boats?

Do you have a citation we could read?

..

Being asked about this series of bad boat racing accidents:

SO why the recent rash of disasters? “I don’t see any pattern to these accidents,” Mr. Rousmaniere said. “People push hard, and sometimes things happen quickly.” He added that boats today are safer than they were in 1979, better able to right themselves after a knockdown, but they’re also lighter and faster and can get in trouble more quickly. “They’re like sports cars,” he said. “Ferraris.”
....

In all sailing there is a certain element of risk, in other words, and in racing, when people are reluctant to shorten sail and sometimes voyage at night or in weather that might otherwise cause them to stay home, the risk is often enhanced. Most racers like it that way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/su...ns-deadly.html

Of course he is talking about performance cruisers, boats that are used to race and to cruise, like most of the ones that were on that race.

I do not always agree with him, It is an old school and a really old salt, but I agree with him on this one. Modern performance boats are faster and safer but you have to know about sailing.

That comment about Ferraris applies to that: If you know how to really drive a Ferrari or a Porsche they are safer than a "normal" car. They break better they can curve safely faster and the time to overtake other cars is smaller and you can do that much easily and with less risks. Put one in the hands of an inexperienced and not careful driver and he can be in trouble real fast.

Saying that, my 22 year daughter drove some months back a 500hp Ferrati in Italy without any problem. She said that it felt like my smaller sports car she use to drive sometimes. So if you go with care and learn along the way, a powerful performance cruiser with a huge stability and a great AVS can teach a medium experienced sailor to become a good sailor. But not to put in the hands or a really inexperienced sailor.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Lapworth, Perry, Lee.

You can only bee kiding Lapworth and Perry are great Na but I said actual.

The best Perry designs are from the 70's (Vailant) as the ones from Lapworth (Cal 30)

The last Lapworth design is almost 30 years old.

Bob Perry has bigger longevity and even if I think it makes no sense to consider him now one of the best actual NA (we could say that about him 40 or even 30 years ago) he is still in activity but the boats that he makes today are modern boats, with fin keel with the ballast in a bulb and spade ruder. I have a big admiration for the guy.

So this is what you consider the top of the crop among actual Na?

No wonder you think the way you think regarding the actual boat production.

[TeddyDiver]

What I'd like to see from Pollux is a evidence instead of claims.. and what an age rasist too. Who decides they must be actual? Only time will judge the real value of their work.
Good NA's: Herreshof, Froude, Skene, nameless men behind Brixham trawlers and such, Chapman..
Not saying there's some others still alive

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

Pogo has a line of racing boats and a line of cruising boats (...)

Yes, I know.

(Now) cruising sailors come from varied backgrounds. If all one sailed before were heavy tubs that move at 4 knots in any direction (except the intended one) then such cruisers are better off NOT going for a cruising Pogo. They are actually better off staying away from a Laser too! ;-)

This is one of many difference between an out-and-out racer and an out-and-out cruiser: a racer can sail the cruising boat, the cruiser may struggle to control the racing one.

Pogo is a boat for sailors, both their racing modality and the cruising one.

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Yes, I know.

(Now) cruising sailors come from varied backgrounds. If all one sailed before were heavy tubs that move at 4 knots in any direction (except the intended one) then such cruisers are better off NOT going for a cruising Pogo. They are actually better off staying away from a Laser too! ;-)

This is one of many difference between an out-and-out racer and an out-and-out cruiser: a racer can sail the cruising boat, the cruiser may struggle to control the racing one.

Pogo is a boat for sailors, both their racing modality and the cruising one.

b.

Yes, I agree with you on that. What you are saying is about the same thing I said with that Ferrari analogy. But then I think that only sailors should sail cruising sailboats. There are plenty of good schools around as well as smaller boats (like Lasers) to learn.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Yes, I know.

(Now) cruising sailors come from varied backgrounds. If all one sailed before were heavy tubs that move at 4 knots in any direction (except the intended one) then such cruisers are better off NOT going for a cruising Pogo. They are actually better off staying away from a Laser too! ;-)

This is one of many difference between an out-and-out racer and an out-and-out cruiser: a racer can sail the cruising boat, the cruiser may struggle to control the racing one.

Pogo is a boat for sailors, both their racing modality and the cruising one.

b.

I'm not buying this. I have raced and cruised. There is a huge difference in how much the crew is willing to put into the effort day in and day out that has little to do with design and a lot to do with fatigue and comfort.

Within the context of a beer cans race, sure everyone focuses 100% on getting everything out of the boat. Within the context of an offshore race, a crew of dedicated racers put everything into winning, but even that is subject to the fatigue factor.

That is not the same at all as a couple going cruising. Even if that couple is dedicated to keeping the boat well-tuned, they just won't be able to endure getting beat up on a daily basis as they plow through their passage at 9 knots. That makes them a slave to every whim and whiff and frequently is going to make for a lack of comfort. When taking it a bit easier is an option, that's what they'll opt for.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the results any given year from the Carib 1500 or similar rallies where boats of various designs - ranging from out and out racers to catamarans and heavy cruising designs - are in the pack. The results are illuminating. When you strip away a few outliers, what you find is that the bulk of the mom and pop crews sailing conservative designs do just as well as the same kind of folks sailing those sleeker, more extreme designs.