Can anyone solve the mystery

[Bellinghamster]

I skipped some posts in the middle so forgive me if this has already been suggested, but wondering if cockpit drains could have been blocked by ice/frozen, then cold rain filled the cockpit and flooded down the companionway, then ice in the drains melted leaving no evidence or further leaking. That's the best I can come up with. Theory could be supported with weather data history and might give you a leg to stand on against the insurance company.

[hpeer]

I had a sneaky leak which could be significant, the exact details will not pertain to you but I offer the story in hopes it may spur some thought. Click on a light bulb.

My boat would take on water over winter on the hard. Some years almost no water, some years a great deal. It was clearly coming from snow melt, but I could not find the path.

The culprit was that, if the boat was slightly tilted down and to starboard, snow melt would accumulate on the cockpit seat, trickle over the seat and into the jacket/cover of the engine control harness. This harness cover would act as a conduit and drain directly into the bilge just an inch from the engine. One year I had well over 100 gallons from this leak.

I only found the leak when replacing the engine control panel. When I cut the cable jacket water poured out. I then carefully looked at the cockpit end and could see how it was positioned to catch a trickle of water.

I installed the new control panel inside the cabin, welded shut the old cable access hole and I have a dust dry boat. Only took 8 years.

[OneBoatman]

Everyone wants to collect premiums but there seems to be so few that are willing to pay claims. You have to know your policy before you contact the insurance commissioner if you believe they are outside of the Terms. Any fresh water accumulated aboard will expand and cause abnormal stress which my cause new leaks. Moderately salty water begins to freeze at slightly lower temperatures. A frozen bilge for a wooden vessel can quite easil pop a blank loose. Many of the modern fiberglass sailboats have bolt on keels. Letting your bilge freeze is not a good idea. Any ingress of water around your keel bolts could be troublesome.

[BarbW]

First, thank you all for replying. It's getting to be a long thread. I might write a summary of the facts in my next post. I would have stopped adding to the thread, except you all have such good ideas.

Second, my (fiberglass) S2 does not have a bolt-on keel. So no worries there.

Third, I don't think there was enough rain during the freeze to allow the cockpit to fill and overflow. There was .32 inches and a lot of wind (sustained 30, gusts to 50) on the eve of the freeze. No precipitation after it got cold. But, I think we're on the right track thinking about what could have frozen to wreak havoc and then thawed to make me think everything was okay.

There are so many possible intrusion points! I contacted Tiara Yachts for help from some designers. They wrote back right away, but didn't see how they could speculate on a cause. I might be able to call someone and get a bit more "speculation."

I've looked at the historical weather data again for the cold period. On the first two days of the cold snap, there was .32 inches of rain reported, much of which fell before the below freezing temps occurred. The days with below freezing temps occurred Dec. 23-28. The (highs) and lows were (56)26, (30)18, (41)21, (43)23, (49)23, (53)28 for the days in question. From the evening of the 23rd to the afternoon of the 25th, the temps never rose above 30 and stayed around 20 for hours.

[Cynara]

On one of my books leaves blocked the cockpit drains. This was in southern California which gets very little rain. 32 inches is a lot rain

[BarbW]

Originally Posted by Cynara

On one of my books leaves blocked the cockpit drains. This was in southern California which gets very little rain. 32 inches is a lot rain

I think you misread the amount. It was .32 inches. You're right. 32 inches is a lot of rain. But .32 inches probably didn't put 10 inches of rain in my cabin (10 inches of water up from my cabin sole plus the bilge).

[Maviarab]

I hope you manage to get to the bottom of it one way or another. I have no suggestions to add,. however I would like to say (and thank those for posting) that this (unfortunately for yourself) has been an extremely informative and educational thread on what does, can and will cause water ingress. Some things I'd never even think to check before reading this.

Best of luck.

[BarbW]

Many thanks to all who have followed this thread and attempted to solve the mystery. Since the thread has grown so long, I will do my best to summarize the mystery and update you all on the facts so far. I've included a theory of my own. But it's not conclusive.

Dec. 1 2022
bilge pump ran well, prepared 1979 S2 9.2C for winter, tied it off far enough away from dock to not allow collision with dock

Dec. 2022-April 2023
someone checked boat weekly and after significant storms
~weekly photos sent to me; no obvious problems detected

April 13, 2023
boarded boat to find water had intruded; estimated 10-12 inches over cabin sole
bilge pump inoperable
house battery bank (trickle charged by solar) tested okay
no visible signs of damage to hull; no water currently intruding
ceiling on starboard side of salon still drippy wet
mold and mildew throughout with significantly more on starboard side
water found in head sink (starboard side), but not galley sink (port side)

April 14, 2023
water pumped out by 1500 gph pump; took approximately 15 minutes (~375 gallons)
couldn’t fit pump in bilge to pump it out; (bilge is deeper than my 24 inch arm length and about 2 feet wide = ~ 15 more gallons)
water showed no signs of reentering
packing gland dripped 1 x minute at most

April 18, 2023
“document date” for rejection of claim
adjuster texted reason for rejection: “The damage to the boat happened over time not sudden damage.”
I texted, “How do you explain the immense amount of water?”
Adjuster responded, “It was a gradual leak. This is not a covered loss.”
I responded, “I’ve had other people do the math. A gradual leak, even leaks, could not have caused that much water to build up, even with the pump never starting at all.”
Adjuster responded, “If you take the boat out of the water and the causation of the leak is discovered I will re-inspect boat.”
I responded, “So, you’re saying you don’t have an explanation for that much water building up?”
Adjuster responded, “If you want to call me we can discuss the claim further. I am not going to keep texting back and forth. The damage to the boat is not sudden damage. I don’t know why the boat took on water. We do know the water has been there for sometime."

Additional Info:

1. rainfall totals for time period in question
Dec. .2, .19, .19, 1.61 = 2.19
Jan. .03, .14, .13, 1.5, .22 = 2.02
Feb. 1.16, 2.36, .05, .39 = 3.96
Mar. .01, .7, .25, .04 = 1
until Apr. 17 .19, 1.77, .38 = 2.34
TOTAL: 11.51 inches
2. hose test of deck revealed one leak near mast—a fitting for two electrical wires through hull
3. hose test of cockpit drain holes revealed unimpeded flow
4. discharge through-hull for bilge pump found under water and plugged with barnacles and seaweed
5. sample of water from interior of boat analyzed for salinity = .095 compared to sample from river = .093; second measurement of river water was .094; two Petco employees considered the samples to have virtually the same salinity
6. experienced boat yard mechanic inspected bilge pump; showed me it had seized up
7. photos suggest boat dropped lower in water and began to list slightly to starboard sometime between Dec. 22, 2022 and Dec. 30, 2022. A clearer photo on Jan. 19th, 2023 confirms the drop and list.
8. There was an extreme weather event between Dec. 23-28.
from 9 pm on Dec. 23-noon on Dec. 25 it was below freezing with lows around 20
plus, temps below freezing with lows in 20s from 9 pm on Dec. 25 until 11 am on Dec. 26;
temps below freezing with lows in 20s from 11 pm on Dec. 26 until 9:30 am on Dec. 27;
temps below freezing with lows in 20s from 3 am on Dec. 28 until 8:30 am on Dec. 28
9. After hearing of the mishap with my boat, a local diesel mechanic, who grew up in the area, said, “My money is on vandalism.”
10. After purchasing a new bilge pump, I emptied the bilge without mishap.
11. U. S. Geological Survey says one gallon = 15,140 drips of water. The boat had over 300 gallons of water in it. That’s 4,542,000 drips. There are 43,800 minutes in a month. In 4 1/2 months, at 1 drip per minute from the packing gland, the boat would have taken on 197,100 drips or about 13 gallons.
12. Let’s say the leak near the mast funneled all 12 inches of rain straight through the cabin top into the boat like a unimpeded hole in the boat. It would still only amount to what you’d find in a rain gauge over the course of 4 1/2 months. I’m not sure how additional water could have entered through that leak. Maybe more water was able to travel down the electrical wires, but the wires came from inside the mast and dropped down a little before looping up and back down through the through-hull (cabin top) fitting. This leak could have been a headache during a rainstorm, but I don’t see it causing the immense amount of water found in the boat.
13. current owner of boat has not reported a problem. (I caulked the one leak I found. It took less than a half teaspoon full of caulk to fix the leak.)

These findings led me to believe that the packing gland and/or rainfall over time could not have caused so much water in my boat. That leaves vandalism or another form of water intrusion from above or below. I still haven’t solved the mystery, but here is my best theory at this point:

The leak next to the mast explains the extra water damage on the starboard side, wet ceiling, and possibly the collected water in the head sink. During the hard freeze, one or more joints/fittings/cracks slightly opened up. Water seeped in at a rate the bilge pump could not keep up with. Bilge pump seized due to over work. Battery bank could have failed or caused intermittent power to bilge pump due to inadequate solar recharge. As soon as it warmed up, those joints/fittings/cracks closed back up. Batteries recharged. No one is the wiser until I opened the hatch.

But, are there joints/fittings/cracks that could do that?

As always, thanks for your insights.

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by BarbW

…
4. discharge through-hull for bilge pump found under water and plugged with barnacles and seaweed
…

Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall this info coming up before.

What exactly does this mean. Like, because the boat was sitting low with a list, the discharge was now below the new waterline? Was there a vented loop? An anti-backflow valve?

Was there precipitation around the time of the freezing temps? Could the cockpit drains have frozen, cockpit collected water, driving the bilge outlet below the waterline?

In this case, the discharge would let in a significant flow of water until the pump was triggered and pumped it back out the same hole. Maybe the constant cycling killed the pump, then the boat was simply sinking until the discharge got plugged up with seaweed, effectively saving it.

At some point the cockpit drains would thaw, releasing that water and leaving no evidence. When you pumped the boat out, the discharge would have risen back above the waterline, and no leaks would be apparent. Also, a boat full of water sloshing around will be much less stable, maybe the wake of a passing boat induced enough rolling to get water in the head sink.

[Cynara]

When caculating pump discharge rates take a good look at the pump rate at the head.how high does the pump have to pump the water out

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by BarbW

April 14, 2023
water pumped out by 1500 gph pump; took approximately 15 minutes (~375 gallons)
couldn’t fit pump in bilge to pump it out; (bilge is deeper than my 24 inch arm length and about 2 feet wide = ~ 15 more gallons)
water showed no signs of reentering
packing gland dripped 1 x minute at most

The 1500 gph is under "ideal" conditions. Real life is probably somewhat less. So maybe a little less water.

2. hose test of deck revealed one leak near mast—a fitting for two electrical wires through hull

How close was this leak to the wet starboard, forward ceiling spot?

12. Let’s say the leak near the mast funneled all 12 inches of rain straight through the cabin top into the boat like a unimpeded hole in the boat. It would still only amount to what you’d find in a rain gauge over the course of 4 1/2 months. I’m not sure how additional water could have entered through that leak. Maybe more water was able to travel down the electrical wires, but the wires came from inside the mast and dropped down a little before looping up and back down through the through-hull (cabin top) fitting. This leak could have been a headache during a rainstorm, but I don’t see it causing the immense amount of water found in the boat.

The 12" is how much water falls in any particular area (whatever reference area you want - 1 sq in, or 1 sg ft, or whatever) at the measurement location, typically an airport or outside the TV station studio. Other locations could receive a significantly different amount (more or less).

The various parts of the boat could be collecting a lot more water than what falls "on the ground." These could include the deck, the mast, the boom/mainsail and maybe others. So if that gets funneled to the leak...

[OneBoatman]

Although there is some disagreement about just how many drops in a gallon, I'm not actually surprised at the Ins co's stance against payment. One thing perhaps against Barb in this mystery is that according to her timeline it seems that the boat was "wintered in water" and wasn't actually boarded for over 4 months. Probably not a good idea, if correct. I've witnessed that stuffing box drip rates can be quite different with changes in temperature. If there was in fact fresh water intrusion contributing down the mast or from other deck leakage that is a difficult thing to factor in and there is always at least some. I also think it's a leap to conclude the bilge pump siezed up from continuous duty simply because it would take a pretty steady leak to make that happen. Secondly, any steady leak doesn't just go away. Thirdly, some pumps have a thermal overload and will start again once they cool down. If there was debris in the bilge that caused the bilge pump to lock up that could result in water accumulating over time as would at some point rise above the cabin sole. This cost is something she must bare and I dare say be somewhat relieved if all the boat needs to be back in action is new bilge pumps, some scrubbing to remove mildew, and a new cabin sole.

[BarbW]

Originally Posted by wyb2

Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall this info coming up before.

What exactly does this mean. Like, because the boat was sitting low with a list, the discharge was now below the new waterline? Was there a vented loop? An anti-backflow valve?

Was there precipitation around the time of the freezing temps? Could the cockpit drains have frozen, cockpit collected water, driving the bilge outlet below the waterline?

In this case, the discharge would let in a significant flow of water until the pump was triggered and pumped it back out the same hole. Maybe the constant cycling killed the pump, then the boat was simply sinking until the discharge got plugged up with seaweed, effectively saving it.

At some point the cockpit drains would thaw, releasing that water and leaving no evidence. When you pumped the boat out, the discharge would have risen back above the waterline, and no leaks would be apparent. Also, a boat full of water sloshing around will be much less stable, maybe the wake of a passing boat induced enough rolling to get water in the head sink.

Believe it or not, a professional diver came out to check the bilge pump through-hull. He saw the one that was just above the water line, which is the manual bilge pump discharge through-hull, and thought it was the electric bilge pump through-hull. He said it wasn't plugged, so I dismissed that as a possible problem. When I realized the oversight, I checked the electric bilge pump through-hull, which is just below the manual one, and found it to be clogged.

I'm not sure if there is a backflow valve or vented loop. I'll try to find out. Since it is right at the water line, I think the designers would have put both in place.

Weather data shows that it was very windy (up to 37 mph) on Dec. 23rd. Not much precipitation during the freeze, though. The flooded cockpit theory is intriguing. But I don't think enough water could have pooled in the cockpit to overflow into the cabin. It has a full canvas enclosure with just screens in places, but it still isn't likely that volume of water could have come into the cockpit.

But the idea that the discharge was underwater and backflow occurred is also intriguing. I assumed that wasn't possible. I'll dig further on that.

I'm pretty sure the leak from above (close to the mast) funneled water into the head sink. But we may never know for sure.

Thanks for your ideas!

[BarbW]

Originally Posted by Cynara

When caculating pump discharge rates take a good look at the pump rate at the head.how high does the pump have to pump the water out

Not sure exactly what you are asking regarding the "pump rate at the head." The bilge pump has to pump water from the bottom of the bilge up at least as high as the water line discharge through-hull which is about 4-5 feet above the bottom of the bilge.

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by BarbW

…The flooded cockpit theory is intriguing. But I don't think enough water could have pooled in the cockpit to overflow into the cabin. …

Just to clarify, it wouldn’t have to overflow into the cabin. It’s just an issue of weight, how many extra pounds does it take to push that through-hull down to the waterline. The fresh water stays in the cockpit, the salt water starts flowing in down below via the through-hull.