Beneteau Sense Quality Issues

[jostalli]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

After heading to the boat show and seeing for myself the same lack of quality issues surrounding the Beneteau Sense line... I refer back to page one of the postings where other participants on this thread noticed the same.... Except for one possible factory shill.

I went to the Miami show last year and the local LA boat show a few weeks ago. The Sense 50 is impressive and unique. Quality of craftsmanship seemed on par with every other high end boat we examined. I don't see what the fuss is about.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Its really unlikely that given the same amount of cabinets that the newer boats are any lighter in weight in that dept.

Obviously you have never seen a composite veneered panel. They are a fraction of the weight of veneered plywood. By a large amount.

Mark

[malbert73]

There is a significant difference in build quality between "high end" and "baseline production" boats. This cannot be denied if you crawl around and into lockers and under floorboards, and in corners, etc, etc. not just sit in salon.

It has been said- and is true- if you are not looking to keep boat for life or cross oceans, probably doesn't matter. There also is a huge difference in price in the new boat market, and for 95 percent of buyers the difference in cost is not worth the difference in quality.

HOWEVER- I personally would not spend 300-350 K for a new production 45 foot boat when I could spend 150-250K on a used hinckley, morris, or bristol (or many others), spend 100 K on a complete professional refit, and have a superior end product.





IMHO the car argument doesn't work anymore because arguably lower end cars like toyota and honda are turning out more sturdy and reliable cars than Mercedes at a lower cost. We haven't gotten there with boats in terms of reliability and durability engineering at a price point.

[DDabs]

In fact it's the exact opposite when you use the car analogy:

I would rather buy a brand new Honda or Toyota than spend thousands of dollars fixing up a 15-20 year old Mercedes

[minaret]

Originally Posted by DDabs

In fact it's the exact opposite when you use the car analogy:

I would rather buy a brand new Honda or Toyota than spend thousands of dollars fixing up a 15-20 year old Mercedes

What if you were going far offroad, deep into country where there are no mechanics and only the parts and tools you bring with you? I do believe that around the world, it's generally accepted that in this case an older vehicle may be better. Because it's more robust and easier to work on.

[DDabs]

If I had to do work myself, I'd rather work on a simple inline-4 than an old Mercedes engine, unless it was a diesel maybe. It's such a hard analogy. If I were going across country in the US, sure I would want my old Jeep 4.0L inline-6, because you can find parts just about anywhere in the country. In Europe, it might be different. I'll never be able to relate boats to cars. It kind of annoys me when people refer to Beneteaus as one brand and Hallberg Rassey as another brand. Really stupid analogy again.

[robert sailor]

Colmj: Yes I have seen the sandwiched panels some even done in honey comb and they are indeed light and strong and I consider them high quality although I have never seen them used in cheap production boats, can you give me some examples where they are used in Beneteaus??

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by DDabs

If I had to do work myself, I'd rather work on a simple inline-4 than an old Mercedes engine, unless it was a diesel maybe. It's such a hard analogy. If I were going across country in the US, sure I would want my old Jeep 4.0L inline-6, because you can find parts just about anywhere in the country. In Europe, it might be different. I'll never be able to relate boats to cars. It kind of annoys me when people refer to Beneteaus as one brand and Hallberg Rassey as another brand. Really stupid analogy again.

Beneteau and HR are very much brands. They have different clientele , price positioning and market segmentation. The vast majority of their clients are however weekend warriors.

What is much harder to ascertain is whether the price uplift is worth the perceived additional quality. Having seen both beneteau and Hr factories on fairly in depth tours, I remain dubious that the HR pricing is primarily a function of higher input coTs and market positioning. HR could never go head to head with beneteau and don't even try.

Dave

[sailorboy1]

you guys are doing nothing but engaging in a snob battle

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

you guys are doing nothing but engaging in a snob battle

Well it does get to the bottom of an interesting aspect of epirb technology and why things like plbs etc are useless as mob devices for example


Dave

[colemj]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Colmj: Yes I have seen the sandwiched panels some even done in honey comb and they are indeed light and strong and I consider them high quality although I have never seen them used in cheap production boats, can you give me some examples where they are used in Beneteaus??

I don't know anything about the Beneteaus - the discussion on engineered wood panels was a general one and I was responding to the statements that they were cheap and "Ikea-like" and that their use on newer boats did not save any weight from the traditional use of solid teak and teak plywood.

Both of which are incorrect.

Mark

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

you guys are doing nothing but engaging in a snob battle

You must have missed the New England boat show last week. I was very impressed by the new Hunter 40 over the Beneteau Sense 38... which is what reignited this thread debate.

Does preferring Hunter over Beneteau now make me a snob.

[robert sailor]

Well I think one discussion was on particle board and that morphed into engineered panels which I am pretty sure was not used on the Sense. Some of the more expensive Cats and mono hulls use high tech interior panels but I'm not aware of any of the lower cost production boats that use them, just to much money.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

There is no particle board on a beneteau. It's veneered plywood , just like HR , oyster , etc. the difference being a robot cuts it as opposed to a highly paid and protected Swedish cabinet maker.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I owned a First 36.7 for 5 years, the "veneered plywood" cabinets almost immediately started losing their glued-on molding. The smooth flooring was dangerously slippery when wet. The cheap varnish on the toe rails started flaking after 6 months of San Francisco weather. The LPS on the boat was 119 degrees, with a B/D ratio of less than 30% the boat does not even qualify for some offshore races. Some of the components (winches, rigging, mast, steering) were high quality while the overall fit and finish was not confidence inspiring.

When we decided to move up to a bigger, blue water cruising boat, we looked at some new Beneteaus and Jeanneaus. The new boats are designed to look good at the boat shows, they figured out 15 years ago that women play a big part in the buying process. I heard that from a Beneteau dealer BTW. The deck stepped mast is standard because it keeps the interior dry and is cheaper. The stanchions do not inspire confidence, just look at their attachment points. Most of their boats do not have an LPS over 120, hell, they don't even list their (iron!) keel weights anymore. I tried awfully hard to find something to like about their First 40/45's. The 40 has a horrible layout below for cruising, why they insisted on a 3 cabin layout with a dinky head I will never understand. The 45 has two dinky heads, very limited storage, and those weird centerline hatches. The salon area would be dangerous in a seaway, lots of open space without handholds. Rant over, I feel better now.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

I owned a First 36.7 for 5 years, ... The LPS on the boat was 119 degrees, with a B/D ratio of less than 30% the boat does not even qualify for some offshore races. ...

There are several ways to measure AVS, the one used by ISAF for racing gives lower numbers than the one used on European RCD, an ISO procedure. Regarding an ISO AVS a First 36.7 with standard keel has an AVS of 126º. For instance, and comparing what is comparable and equally in what regards ISO AVS, a Catalina 42 or 42MKII has an AVS of 105º.

What boat do you have? Do you know the ISO AVS?

The B/D of the boat can be misleading since the type of keel and draft have a big influence. A boat with a bigger draft an a torpedo keel needs much less ballast for the same RM, compared with a lower draft or a non bulbed keel. Even a bulbed keel needs more ballast if compared with a torpedo keel to have the same RM.