Will Sailboats Still Be Made in 30 Years?

[pacesetter]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

You're right that these things work in space, but would they bother with all that technological complication up there if they could just put up a sail and get plenty of power from the wind? I love what my solar panels do for me (I'm currently in Japan and my boat's on its mooring in Maine and the beers aboard are ice cold and will be when I get back aboard in 6 days!) and I hope they continue to get more efficient right along with battery technology improvements. But I don't think they will ever be efficient enough to create the power to push my boat at hull speed for hours and days on end like the sails can and they certainly won't give me the same feeling of freedom and excitement that moving under sail does.

Sailing is not always about how much you spend on silly gadgets. It is about freedom and simplicity.

I have heard the promises about better panels for decades, yet they still have extremely low efficiency and very short life spans. I am not sure many people would be willing to sit for a few days waiting for the sun to charge their systems.

The reality is that high tech will leave you in a bad spot should an igbt burn up at the wrong moment

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by pacesetter

Sailing is not always about how much you spend on silly gadgets. It is about freedom and simplicity.

I have heard the promises about better panels for decades, yet they still have extremely low efficiency and very short life spans. I am not sure many people would be willing to sit for a few days waiting for the sun to charge their systems.

The reality is that high tech will leave you in a bad spot should an igbt burn up at the wrong moment

I completely agree about buying and depending on silly gadgets. But I do like my solar panels as a part of the overall electrical charging system, not as a replacement and not as something I sit around and wait for or depend on to use the boat as it's intended, for sailing! I really like the decreased time I have to run my generator each day when I'm aboard and the way my batteries last longer and are always magically full charged whenever I come back to the boat with the refer/freezer still cold. My solar panels with their controller costs less than one boat unit and I plan to get at least 5 years out of them, and probably more. That seems like a bargain to me! I wouldn't say that I depend on them and if they stop working, I can certainly do it the old fashioned way by running the engine or genset more and carrying a cooler back and forth to the boat each time just like I always did in the past, or forget about all that and just go sailing. I think the secret is to use technology to make your life better without becoming a slave to it and I do recognize the tendency to become so seduced by gadgets that you forget that you don't really need hardly any of them. But I don't think that makes gadgets inherently bad things to have aboard, just something that needs to be kept in perspective.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

You're right that these things work in space, but would they bother with all that technological complication up there if they could just put up a sail and get plenty of power from the wind? I love what my solar panels do for me (I'm currently in Japan and my boat's on its mooring in Maine and the beers aboard are ice cold and will be when I get back aboard in 6 days!) and I hope they continue to get more efficient right along with battery technology improvements. But I don't think they will ever be efficient enough to create the power to push my boat at hull speed for hours and days on end like the sails can and they certainly won't give me the same feeling of freedom and excitement that moving under sail does.

Heres something to keep an eye on

The Next Revolution in Solar Energy: High Efficiency Printable Tandem Solar Cells | Clean Energy Institute

[hafa]

First, please note that I own and run a company that does residential solar power design and installation, and our home, business and yacht are all off-grid.

That said, I think that there's far too much enthusiasm on the part of the OP and others in this thread for the potential development and near-term capabilities of solar and battery technology.

Points:

1. There is a tremendous amount of vaporware in this industry, particularly from research institutions;
2. The efficiency of commercially available solar panels has improved a whopping 8% in 47 years;
3. The dominant commercially available battery technology is 160 years old;
4. The "newest" battery technology (Lithium ion) is 40 years old, and is still not commercially available in the majority of the market;
5. lifepo4 has seen a boost from the enthusiast sector, but this technology also has limitations and it's unlikely that affordable fully automated charging systems will be widely available in the near-term, thus relegating lifepo4 to niche status for the immediate future.

Although we have seen a tremendous reduction in cost and concurrent increase of availability of panels in the last 8 years due to flooding of the market with inexpensive Chinese units, there is no indication that significant improvements in production or storage technologies for the commercial market are forthcoming.

The upshot?

A. As others have observed in this thread:

1. Energy production and storage density (Li-ion is ~1/100th that of diesel) is a tiny fraction of what is required in order to continuously drive a boat using solar power alone.
2. The laws of thermodynamics rule out "perpetual motion" ideas such as wind/wave/water generators.

B. 30 years from now, sailing will be similar to what it is today: a niche hobby for those who can afford it and/or are willing to make significant sacrifices to achieve their goals.

[Zven]

Originally Posted by hafa

1. The laws of thermodynamics rule out "perpetual motion" ideas such as wind/wave/water generators.

Thanks for the industry insights, but I didn't understand this particular point... Surely, wind and waves can be and are being used to generate power. Tides and rivers too.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Zven

Thanks for the industry insights, but I didn't understand this particular point... Surely, wind and waves can be and are being used to generate power. Tides and rivers too.

I think someone suggested that a wind generator could be used to generate power for a fan that would push the boat up into that same wind instead of using a sail, or something like that. We all like to dream about what might be possible in the future but must not get so carried away that we forget that the laws of physics and thermodynamics will still apply.

[South Bound]

If something can be done to the uncomfortable motion of a motor boat, the tossing and tilting in big waves, then why not ditch the sails. But I've never been onboard a powerboat that was comfortable in anything but smooth water. Motoring on a sailboat is just as uncomfortable, but as soon as you get the sails up the motion becomes predictable and - well, comfortable.

[hafa]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I think someone suggested that a wind generator could be used...

Thanks, jtsailjt, it was actually suggested in the OPs original post:

Originally Posted by comesatime

Cruising boats with solar generating topsides (like the Tesla Roof), wind generators instead of sails, wave/current energy converters...

[Seighlor]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

But I don't think they will ever be efficient enough to create the power to push my boat at hull speed for hours and days on end like the sails can and they certainly won't give me the same feeling of freedom and excitement that moving under sail does.

That says it all.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Yes, a very nice day dream...

Reality looks then probably different - You go down to the seas, staying for hours in a traffic jam, the lonely sea - is not than lonely any more - the beach is full of umbrellas and towels, sun-cream greasy body lying next to each other to the horizon, the marina is crowded, so to find you tall ship you have to step over several others. Then, the star - to navigate is invisible due to the smog of the city - replacing the grey mist of the sea of the past ages.

Well hopefully after 20-40 miles in the wide open the loneliness you are seeking will come around you and you might be on your own - finally - until the next AIS or radar alarm of an approaching container vessel breaks the silence...

You need to move out of Southern California !!

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I think someone suggested that a wind generator could be used to generate power for a fan that would push the boat up into that same wind instead of using a sail, or something like that. We all like to dream about what might be possible in the future but must not get so carried away that we forget that the laws of physics and thermodynamics will still apply.

Like this?


https://www.treehugger.com/renewable...-the-wind.html

[GILow]

I love photoshopped images for the Net Suckers. They always get the shadows wrong.

[Sailorbob8599]

Harking back to the OP's original question, I believe sailboats will always be around, provided a one world government does not act like a dictatorship & prevent people from sailing away from their country of origin whenever they see fit.
I see 'sailing' as the one activity that belies the old adage 'you can';t get something for nothing' ... after all, the wind is free, which in turn provides free power to propel your boat. Also, no government has ever tried to 'TAX' that source of power. So yes, sailboats will be around forever in my humble opinion.

[hafa]

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

...I see 'sailing' as the one activity that belies the old adage 'you can';t get something for nothing' ...

Want to trade maintenance bills?

[Paul Elliott]

If you gave me a free electric boat that used unobtanium batteries and 9000% efficient solar panels and a silent motor and was completely usable for long-distance voyaging I would still want to have a sailboat. It's not always about practicality! I would probably enjoy buzzing around on the impossi-boat, but there's just something magic about sailing.