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Old 28-12-2017, 16:05   #46
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pirate Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
After watching the video again, itís now clear to me, or at least highly likely these folks were biting off more than they could chew. They probably had good information about the weather, but chose to head across an open sea anyway... most likely to meet a time schedule which is common amongst folks who charter. Those of us who cruise will usually wait out the foul weather. The evidence of this notion is in the fact that they are heading out in good spirits with the sails already furled... the skipper is anticipating higher wind velocity. Check out the background in the beginning of the video and wind direction.

When they advance out of the leward side of the island is when they get suddenly slammed by wind and waves which shreads their sail. So in my opinion... the weather was a pre-existing condition which they took a chance on. During the second half of the video, the weather is coming from the oposite direction as they head back to the same place they came from... again look at the background.

Basically... the skipper got caught with his knickers down regarding the weather and was clearly in over his head. A good learning experience. IMHO

Thereís nothing wrong with critiquing a video like this, because much can be learned by watching it. Weíve been caught out a few times, which is how I learned to anticipate the wind and waves by looking at the sea state and coastal features; sailing around a cape or point is a good example, where current, wind and waves need to be anticipated. The folks in the video... didnít do that.

Iím thinking Phil will agree with me on this one.
If you mean this Phil..
I concur..
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Old 28-12-2017, 16:15   #47
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

Disagree with earlier suggestion to head into the wind to furl genoa. The flogging makes it really tough. Best head DDW to reduce apparent wind. If that doesnít work Iíd unfurl and try to lower the sail. Risky and not much fun at best, impossible at worst if one waits too long
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Old 28-12-2017, 16:24   #48
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

OR as occurred, just let her rip.

Surely not an elegant solution but it did keep inexperienced and ill equipped folks off the foredeck, a dangerous and lonely place. Making the call to sacrifice the Sail May have been the smartest thing he did all day. Presuming it was something he was aware of.
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Old 28-12-2017, 16:28   #49
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

There's only a couple of things that can jam a furler, as boatie mentioned a loose furl caused by little to no sheet tension when originally furled and the other is a halyard wrap. Depending on the furler gear halyard wraps are quite common in strong winds and are caused by not enough halyard tension and not enough angle between the halyard and top spinner. If you continue to use a winch when furling a halyard wrap you'll get what is called a bird's nest, which is the headstay being unwound and staying that way. Simple fix, remove the complete furler system and replace the headstay.
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Old 28-12-2017, 17:44   #50
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

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Originally Posted by John_Trusty View Post
For a charter crew on holiday, they didnít do so badly. Give em a break. Probably the first time 80 percent of them had been on a boat in over 30. Skipper kept his cool and minimal shouts. Didnít understand pan-pan as they only had a torn headsail.
X2. I also thought the pan-pan was unnecessary at that point.
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Old 28-12-2017, 19:48   #51
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

Any one who went up on that foredeck... dead meat. Can u imagine a mob with those seas and that experience level. No jack lines...yippee ki yeah!!!
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Old 28-12-2017, 20:18   #52
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

'Looks like they were having a good time right up until.... they were not having a good time.
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Old 28-12-2017, 22:09   #53
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
After watching the video again, itís now clear to me, or at least highly likely these folks were biting off more than they could chew. They probably had good information about the weather, but chose to head across an open sea anyway... most likely to meet a time schedule which is common amongst folks who charter. Those of us who cruise will usually wait out the foul weather. The evidence of this notion is in the fact that they are heading out in good spirits with the sails already furled... the skipper is anticipating higher wind velocity. Check out the background in the beginning of the video and wind direction.

When they advance out of the leward side of the island is when they get suddenly slammed by wind and waves which shreads their sail. So in my opinion... the weather was a pre-existing condition which they took a chance on. During the second half of the video, the weather is coming from the oposite direction as they head back to the same place they came from... again look at the background.

Basically... the skipper got caught with his knickers down regarding the weather and was clearly in over his head. A good learning experience. IMHO

Thereís nothing wrong with critiquing a video like this, because much can be learned by watching it. Weíve been caught out a few times, which is how I learned to anticipate the wind and waves by looking at the sea state and coastal features; sailing around a cape or point is a good example, where current, wind and waves need to be anticipated. The folks in the video... didnít do that.

Iím thinking Phil will agree with me on this one.
Ken seems like it came on pretty quick. Kind of like the Straights of Messina. We were a good crew and furled quickly. Can't expect that from charterers. Over all I yhink they did pretty well.
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Old 28-12-2017, 23:06   #54
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

Be wary of recommending unrolling and trying to drop a luff groove sail in any strong wind. It becomes a free flying sail , only attached at a couple of points and can fling someone overboard in a heart beat. I believe a free flying sail (I dont think it was roller) was what caused the recent death near Barbados. Letting it blow to pieces was far safer than someone without a real strong safety tether going forward and trying to get it down. A highly experienced racing crew could have handled the situation better, but for charter guests they didnt do too bad. Just another 2 cents worth. ____Grant.
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Old 29-12-2017, 01:51   #55
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

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Be wary of recommending unrolling and trying to drop a luff groove sail in any strong wind. It becomes a free flying sail , only attached at a couple of points and can fling someone overboard in a heart beat. I believe a free flying sail (I dont think it was roller) was what caused the recent death near Barbados. Letting it blow to pieces was far safer than someone without a real strong safety tether going forward and trying to get it down. A highly experienced racing crew could have handled the situation better, but for charter guests they didnt do too bad. Just another 2 cents worth. ____Grant.
Totally agree with you (and many others before), Grant. The skipper didn't freak out but ran for cover behind the island. A headsail can be replaced, a lost crew member not.
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Old 29-12-2017, 04:38   #56
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

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Totally agree with you (and many others before), Grant. The skipper didn't freak out but ran for cover behind the island. A headsail can be replaced, a lost crew member not.
Correction: He ran back to the same place he started from... a sheltered place he never should have left in the first place. Lesson learned I hope. Watch the video again... when the boat is nearly on it's side with the crew desperately hanging on the lifelines is the moment they come about and turn back.

The lesson: Don't try to keep to some unrealistic schedule despite the weather. What we see is a boatload of screw ups which thankfully turned out OK for everyone aboard, and now provide us and everyone a view of what happened thanks to someone onboard shooting the event with a Gopro and then sharing it on the internet.
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Old 29-12-2017, 05:12   #57
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

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Correction: He ran back to the same place he started from...
Fair enough, so he turned around.

Quote:
The lesson: Don't try to keep to some unrealistic schedule despite the weather. What we see is a boatload of screw ups which thankfully turned out OK for everyone aboard, and now provide us and everyone a view of what happened thanks to someone onboard shooting the event with a Gopro and then sharing it on the internet.
Yep, I've been chartering in the Med, too, many moons ago. You always need to keep an eye on how far you venture away from the marina where you need to return the boat to. We returned the boat in one piece even though we lost the anchor, temporarily, due to an unsecured shackle. Had to get some scuba gear to retrieve it... but that's another story...
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Old 29-12-2017, 07:42   #58
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

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Could anyone tell how the furler "tangled" ... is there anything that could have been done in handling the furling line to minimise the risk of such a malfunction?

They didn't seem to be doing much to try and un-jam the furler. Is that because the only thing that could be done required going forward, which nobody was prepared to do? or were there other things they could have tried from the cockpit?
In our boat we believe that the most important thing to do to avoid "tangling" of the furler is to brake the furling line a bit when you open the headsail. This makes the roll tight, and it is more or less impossible for the loops inside the roll to get tangled.
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Old 29-12-2017, 23:46   #59
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

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In our boat we believe that the most important thing to do to avoid "tangling" of the furler is to brake the furling line a bit when you open the headsail. This makes the roll tight, and it is more or less impossible for the loops inside the roll to get tangled.
I agree, it's something I always instruct crew about. I also agree with Robert regarding Halyard wrap. When I picked up my boat I noticed the genoa was connected to the spare Halyard not the genoa Halyard. This had apparently worked fine for years although it could of wrapped due to not running down the mast abit before connecting to the sail creating the right angle.

These problems are solved before sailing... I hope.
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Old 30-12-2017, 22:29   #60
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Re: When Things Turn To Poop, and.....

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I have noticed that folks here tend to be a little hyper-sensitive to criticism or opinions that differ from their own or strongly-held or common beliefs. And some folks are quick to jump in and admonish anyone who might post anything which might ruffle feathers. While it is nice to think maybe we could live in a world where if you don't have anything nice to say then perhaps nothing should be said at all, in the end that makes for bland discussion and a type of echo chamber in any community. Plus nothing gets learned from mistakes if nobody is willing to discuss these things critically or "negatively" at all.

There is a time and a place for constructive criticism with a realistic approach to mistakes made, with an eye towards improvement and self-knowledge. Is this not that time?

There is little doubt that things could have been done better in the above video, especially with the outcome of a shredded headsail and a crew that was in jeopardy to the point that they even called a Pan-Pan. We can either hold our tongues and not learn anything specific from this video, or be critical in a civilized manner to discuss what could or should have been done differently so that the hypothetical next time might have better results. Not everyone is a crusty & salty sailor with all the answers to any situation they might encounter out there and wouldn't benefit from some discussion.

Maybe it is just a sign of the times when everyone is becoming afraid to say anything critical or the least bit controversial lest the "be nice" cops come out and stomp out all the discussion before anyone's thin skin has a chance to wrinkle.

This is the general sailing forum. Where else, and when else should such a discussion take place, if ever? I'm just wondering aloud...
Well said. Timely and valuable points.
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