Should I buy a trainer or a cruiser?

[jkindredpdx]

Originally Posted by Capt Jerry

The suggestions about a Catalina 22 or 25 or similar size Hunter are all good. Here is how I learned to sail: regularly crew on a racing boat. You will sail will experienced sailors in all kinds of weather.

+1 That's where I started too... Deck ape for PHRF beer can races... constant fun and learning... a lot of experience in a short time.

[Jim Cate]

For all of you who are suggesting Catalina 22/25 to this chap, please note that he lives in New South Wales, Australia, not somewhere in the USA. Catalina trailer sailors are pretty uncommon here... I've only seen a couple in all our time here, and I notice them due to my long-ago ownership of one.

It is a different world when one leaves the States...

Jim

[thomm225]

If you want to learn to sail and also keep the kids interested in todays world, the boat must be fast.

My son was my crew for beach cat racing from the age of 10. He was many times the reason we won races when he was 15. He was really good at calling tacks based on wind changes .....headers and lifts etc

I mentioned earlier my Bristol 27 but that was after I had raced for 15 years on sailboats that could easily hit 20 knots plus

Go the dinghy route or beach cat. It gets a bit boring for the kids sailing at 5-7 knots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39YCsV1o49o

After you and the family get the hang of it, you can move up to high tech beach cats with spinnakers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqFzPoaDQ4g

then foiling beach cats. Here's Glen Ashby of Australia winning an A Class Worlds Regatta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imBnvyABptU

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

For all of you who are suggesting Catalina 22/25 to this chap, please note that he lives in New South Wales, Australia, not somewhere in the USA. Catalina trailer sailors are pretty uncommon here... I've only seen a couple in all our time here, and I notice them due to my long-ago ownership of one.

It is a different world when one leaves the States...

Jim

I'm sure any recommendations of specific brands may be modified to each particular sailing area. Even within the States there are significant differences as far as different brands and preferences are concerned. May be these can be posted in this thread as well. For example Catalina 22=XXX in Europe and YYY in Australia/NZ, Hunter/O'Day/Catalina 25= ZZZ, etc.

Also it would be informative to learn various club membership set ups, costs, reqs, etc in different parts of the world. For example a friend of a friend sails in SF area at a club which charges basic $40/mo fee just for the membership which entitles a member to spend time and hang out at the club house, attend the parties etc. If they want to sail they just reserve a boat for add'l $$ which of course depends on the size, hours/days used, etc and usually runs in the hundreds of $$ per day total but split among X number of people. What he needs is to constantly get 2-4-5 people together, depending on the boat size and split the sailing charges with them. Because of the work and family commitments he is not sailing that frequently and would lose out under the system we had when I was a member of my club. But under his club's system I would spend significantly more (especially if we did not have enough paying crew to split the daily fees). In our system the partners paid their share in the beginning of the season (even at the end of previous season for a huge discount) and it did not matter if they later could not join us for sails. So our system awarded the more frequent sailor, as I think it should.

[captlloyd]

My POV is buy the boat you want to cruise now. I am in agreement with your friend. Actually there is not a great deal of difference between sailing a 40 ft. and a 26 ft. sailboat. And the sailing part is just half of the equation as there are so many other aspects to master, navigation, weather, seamanship, on and on. Good luck.

[jkindredpdx]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

For all of you who are suggesting Catalina 22/25 to this chap, please note that he lives in New South Wales, Australia, not somewhere in the USA. Catalina trailer sailors are pretty uncommon here... I've only seen a couple in all our time here, and I notice them due to my long-ago ownership of one.

It is a different world when one leaves the States...

Jim

As usual, you are correct Jim.

So I'll say relatively ubiquitous, 20-24' loa, with outboard engine, inexpensive, large cockpit, retractable keel, main and jib that can be raised by children and women, and large enough cabin for 2 adults and 2 children to camp cruise...

IMO... Since the OP says he wants to eventually quit the rat race and cruise, it doesn't need to be a racer to be fun, but it helps if it is a popular enough design that one can enjoy not so competitive racing...

[Mirage35]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

... Actually there is not a great deal of difference between sailing a 40 ft. and a 26 ft. sailboat...

I'm not as new as the OP appears to be, but I don't consider myself very experienced, and I think this statement needs some nuance. After this summer's experience, as captain or crew on boats from 30 to 50 feet, my view:

When you're in open water with crew who know what they're doing, there's not a lot of difference.

When you're in a crowded anchorage, docking in wind, or dealing with unexpected weather, and you're the most experienced person on the boat ... the bigger boat feels a helluva lot bigger.

[fursoc]

Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull

When you're in a crowded anchorage, docking in wind, or dealing with unexpected weather, and you're the most experienced person on the boat ... the bigger boat feels a helluva lot bigger.

That brought a little shiver... Thanks for the lesson in reality.

[jkindredpdx]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

My POV is buy the boat you want to cruise now. I am in agreement with your friend. Actually there is not a great deal of difference between sailing a 40 ft. and a 26 ft. sailboat. And the sailing part is just half of the equation as there are so many other aspects to master, navigation, weather, seamanship, on and on. Good luck.

I respect your POV... but I think there is a huge difference, in cost, effort raising and dropping sails, docking, anchoring, jibing, tacking... IMO little mistakes are amplified disproportionately as the boat grows. I had many years experience on various boats from 10-26 ft. Despite chartering 30-36 footers, my 35 footer could be a handful 5 years ago. A small error on a 22 footer with a swing keel could be handled with a foot, boat hook, or little extra gas. With my 35 footer I order passengers NOT to muscle it or get their bodies between a boat and a hard place...

[DavidM1600]

Hi, I am going to make some comments on this topic based on my experience to date and I am the first to say my experience is very limited. However, that aside, I have been doing a lot of research for my own peace of mind before I make the leap into boat ownership.

The bottom line though that I can garner is that there are a myriad of ways to get into sailing, and learn through experience.

About a year or more ago I came to the realisation I really wanted to learn to sail and with the aim of getting my own boat. Of course I know and have been repeatedly told that buying and owning a boat is or can be an expensive activity. The other key thing is to very much understand that a boat is not an investment. I learnt this lesson from day 1.

So, what have I done. I have talked and talked with many boat owners about boats, key features required and about sailing techniques, technical aspects, insurance, marina/vrs mooring on a buoy etc etc.

The first key piece of advice I learnt from a highly experienced marine surveyor and sailor is (a) do you like the look of the boat, its shape, internal space and what it comes with. (b) can you afford it, and that means not just the purchase price and (c) is it in sound condition or/can you afford to have it fixed up or at least do as much of the work on it yourself, and lastly (d) what type of sailing do you want to do, be it on the lake or in a river, coastal, racing, or even passages (blue water) If you can't answer these key questions in the positive, then don't buy it for you won't get the right boat for you and your family.

Definitely join a club. I joined down here in Tassie, the Cruising yacht club of Tas, as I knew a member of the club (the secretary) and he got me out on his boat on a number of occasions with my partner and since then I have sailed with him on quite a number of occasions. Our club is affiliated with another club that offers a broad range of sailing courses. I had signed up to do the competent crew course but due to some other reasons had to dip out. I think I will probably end up doing it sometime, the other key courses I wish to do are navigation and marine diesel mechanics. Both are important. There are plenty of other relevant courses (eg radio communications, sail planning, etc etc).

In joining the club it has given me access to a range of highly experienced sailors, from whom I am constantly learning from. I have now done one season of twilight racing (which I can highly recommend you doing as you will learn a lot from this, even if your role on board is just a simple one). My role basically has been on the heady winch (on the portside), and even at times just tailing this winch. Plus acting as ballast when tacking and packing up the boat. You will be surprised how much you can learn from this. I have raced on two boats, a Hanse 40 and an older Farr 38. Both boats have been great to sail on.

In terms of cruising, be it day or weekend or even longer sailing, I have managed to get on board with a good friend (now) from my club on his Nauticat 38 Pilot house cutter rigged ketch. The longest trip I have done on this boat was a 2 week cruise up the east coast of Tassie to Bass Straight (Flinders and Deal Island). It was such a great trip and I learnt so much from the skipper and other crew member. I have plans to go cruising again with him early next year for possibly a 3 week trip, let alone many other opportunities with him.

I have read on line, books, I watch a huge range of videos on Youtube, there are many such channels to learn from. I even now have my own sailing youtube channel of my escapades and will continue to post them as I sail and learn more.

I also am constantly looking at boat websites (eg Boatsales.tas but also and which is more relevant for the mainland Aus - Boathub.

My point with this is that over time you will gain sufficient knowledge of the range of boats out there for sale, and all the technical aspects of the different types of boats. From here, then you can refine what key features you want on the boat you wish to purchase. For me it is now quite clear what I want and it will be my first boat, but realistically, it varies from 30 -40 ft. In talking just recently with the skipper of a boat I am soon to go sailing on (my marine surveyor), in his view there is fundamentally little difference between a 34 to 40 ft boat in terms of being able to sail it. My aim is for coastal and blue water cruising on the boat I wish to buy, my main limitation really is the available budget.

From my observations, boats for sale generally remain on the market for quite a long time, so you have negotiation room (its a buyer's market), and there is a pretty good range of 31-35 ft boats for less than $50K, but less so once you go over 36 ft. For me I am not interested in a project boat, I have had two major historic house restorations on my plate and am over going down this road with a boat. Having said that I am well expecting that any boat will require maintenance and this means $$$ and time. You need to allow for this in buying a boat. Jaimie and Liz from Sailing Esper (Youtube) advice keeping about 25% of your boat purchase budget available for maintenance costs. This seems reasonable to me.

In talking with and based on my experience, sure you can learn a lot from sailing a sub 30 ft boat, and many sailors have chosen this route, but I would tend to suggest that this is possibly more relevant to those who learn to sail from childhood upwards. For me, given I am 56 and retired earlier this year, it is not the route I have chosen. My aim is to sail on, learn and look at as many boats as I can before I proceed to buy my boat.

In reading through this topic there were many comments on boat purchase costs (relatively cheaply) available in the US, the situation here in Aus is different. Such cheap boats simply are not available and anything less than $20K will be a problem boat or at best a very small trailor boat.

In talking with brokers and other sailors the same advice is received, you get tired of small boats very quickly. Hence I have no desires to go down this road. Also in buying and selling boats this has costs, brokers fees etc.

So my personal advice would be rather than buying first up work out your answers to the key questions and learn - sail on as many boats you can, take courses, learn the technical stuff and get your family out as well sailing.

There doesn't need to be a rush to buy that first boat.

[DavidM1600]

I also meant to note that this Saturday I am heading up to the Goldcoast to join a crew of two others (my marine surveyor friend and a friend of his), to sail his "new" boat back to Hobart. The boat being a 1981 52 ft Holeman and Pye, aluminium hulled ketch. Its going to be an awesome trip home, complete with night watches and plenty of 'blue water sailing', including Bass Straight. As its a delivery we aim to get home as quickly but safely as possible. How I got on to this is as a direct result of being a member of my yacht club. I actually had the chance to go on 3 different voyages back from Queensland to Tassie.

Such opportunities to crew onboard and learn from experienced sailors is definitely out there, and in my view you are more than likely to learn a whole lot more from this type of sailing then from doing courses. But I am not saying don't do such courses, it is just that the more you sail and on a range of boats, the greater your skill and experience level will become.

I equally have been offered to go and do some river sailing sometime in the future on a Catalina 27 owned by another friend from the club and I will when this is possible.

In my view the ideal 1st boat on which you can do a lot of different type of sailing ranges between 33 to 39 ft. For me, if I could manage the cost I would be looking for a Sparkman and Stephens 39 but alas currently such boats are not common on the market and or mostly out of my budget. Hence I will more likely get a 34-36 ft boat, eg. Duncanson 34/35, S&S 34/36, Adams, Mottle 33, Ericson, C&C, Bounty 35, Swanson etc but sub $45K.

[fursoc]

Wow, thank you all so much for your input. It's clear that there are many ways to skin a sailor, this thread is evidence of that!

[SFS]

Lots of good advice here, and with most things in life, there are compromises. Without adding a lot of verbiage, I would say that a solid foundation in sailing is important for cruising. There will be enough things occupying your mind and challenging your skillset (go/no go weather decisions, anchoring, dinghy management, route planning, etc.) that the basics of sailing shouldn't be one of them. Get experience. Doesn't matter how.

I suggest you go reread posts #30 and #37. Then reread them both again.

One final thought - in small boats, things happen fast, but the effects are usually small. In larger boats, things tend to happen more slowly, but the effects are much larger. Good luck, and keep asking questions.

[fursoc]

Originally Posted by DavidM1600

Such opportunities to crew onboard and learn from experienced sailors is definitely out there, and in my view you are more than likely to learn a whole lot more from this type of sailing then from doing courses.

This makes a lot of sense. Hopefully once my course starts I'll be able to enquire about this sort of thing in my area.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by DavidM1600

I also meant to note that this Saturday I am heading up to the Goldcoast to join a crew of two others (my marine surveyor friend and a friend of his), to sail his "new" boat back to Hobart. The boat being a 1981 52 ft Holeman and Pye, aluminium hulled ketch. Its going to be an awesome trip home, complete with night watches and plenty of 'blue water sailing', including Bass Straight. As its a delivery we aim to get home as quickly but safely as possible. How I got on to this is as a direct result of being a member of my yacht club. I actually had the chance to go on 3 different voyages back from Queensland to Tassie.

Such opportunities to crew onboard and learn from experienced sailors is definitely out there, and in my view you are more than likely to learn a whole lot more from this type of sailing then from doing courses. But I am not saying don't do such courses, it is just that the more you sail and on a range of boats, the greater your skill and experience level will become.

I equally have been offered to go and do some river sailing sometime in the future on a Catalina 27 owned by another friend from the club and I will when this is possible.

In my view the ideal 1st boat on which you can do a lot of different type of sailing ranges between 33 to 39 ft. For me, if I could manage the cost I would be looking for a Sparkman and Stephens 39 but alas currently such boats are not common on the market and or mostly out of my budget. Hence I will more likely get a 34-36 ft boat, eg. Duncanson 34/35, S&S 34/36, Adams, Mottle 33, Ericson, C&C, Bounty 35, Swanson etc but sub $45K.

Yours is a good example of the "sail OPBs" approach, and how it can work out well. It does depend on location, though, and Hobart and environs seems to have more than the usual allotment of active and friendly sailors.

At any rate, we hope to be back in Tassie before Xmas (medical issues allowing), and certainly before the WBF in February. If you see Insatiable II floating about, make yourself known, and we'll have a cuppa and talk boats.

Jim