It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to buy!

[Mimsy]

We toyed with the idea of ordering a new build. As I carefully inspected the model boat we were considering, I came to the realization that while we would be quadrupling the amount of money we had floating, we weren't actually going to gain a whole lot more other than shiny. That made the decision easy for me.

Also, the sales staff on board were downright rude and no way did I want to pay them for the privilege of being jerks to me.

[Rhapsody-NS27]

TCG, since you're looking at 28 footers, have you looked at Bristol Channel Cutter's? Maybe something in your area. From what I've seen, they tend to cost more than other boats but look like it might work for what you're looking for.

[Pallykin]

Our boat, a 1984 Islander 34, has an aft head. But none of the berths are large enough for two people, and the tankage is tiny - 40 gallons of water as an example. This boat has been a great coastal cruiser, but it is not designed for crossing oceans. When vacationing for a week or two in the summer, there is not enough storage space. The boat lacks the kinds of systems that cruisers typically want, like a water maker. And there is no place to put one.

So our dear boat, which we've owned since 1999, is not going to be the cruising boat. That said, she has been satisfactory for what we've wanted to do for a long time.

[RabidRabbit]

Buy bigger if you can, you wont mind a bit in 6 months. It seems at some point you need to greatly change you "must have" list and just buy a boat. If you keep waiting for the ready to go, not a project, cream puff. You could wait a while because it might not be there in your price range. All sailboats are projects, cant avoid it. The best deals need lots of work. Get one with a seized engine and shot rigging.
boat 5k
new beta marine 28hp & tranny 10k
wire & stalocks 4k
thats 20k spent and a solid boat.
you'll be hard pressed to buy that quality in any boat. all used boats need sails as well.
How much work your able to do is what makes the 30k, 1970's boats a good deal.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl

.....
We're just wondering if other folks have gone through similiar thought processes and research and how they eventually decided which way to go. ...

This is one of my favorite philosophies when advising someone like yourselves on choosing the best floating home to suit your needs.

“We assign a moment to decision, to dignify the process as a timely result of rational and conscious thought.
But decisions are made of kneaded feelings; they are more often a lump than a sum”

Look at as many as you can…. When you find one that feels right, become the “devils advocate” to find major faults…. If it still feels ok to both… move ahead with your choice

[ArtM]

A suggestion I've made to others, adapted from a car buying method I once developed, is this.

1) Determine how much you want to spend.

2) Find the best boat you can buy for that price.

3) Get more money, raise that price and return to step 2

The reality is that you will not get a perfect boat, you will get a boat you can use. This methods removes the hypothetical conversations and replaces them with simple, practical decision making.

[boatman61]

Well I live in Europe so the 'names' here wont be much use but I've lived aboard and Tran-atlantic'd a Bene 321 and a 331.. I found both more than adequate to my needs. Good layouts and galley space... heads by the companionway and easy to handle...
Mind my Hunter Cherubini 37 was pretty good as well... don't get tied in to a certain mold... climb aboard everything in your range you can... you'll know when you've found the one.... she'll get under your skin...
Remember... its the best compromise your looking for and the way you live counts...
I compromise on storage... ie buying 12mths canned at a time...
I Don't...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sumner

I'll take a stab here......a number manufactures of cruising boats from 30 years ago are no longer in business. Then there were a number of boats in the 30-34 foot range that people took around the world and still do.

Probably because enough people didn't want them and their production efficiencies were poor. Some were also badly built

From what I've seen (not much) it looks like the newer boats in that range are designed more for coastal cruising with wide beams and as much room below as possible which I think goes against the design of the type boat that you want to cross oceans on. The new boats in that length are great boats for the conditions they have been designed for and the market they are going after. Would they make a better boat for what you have in mind? I think I'd rather have one of the older boats that has been brought up to a safe sailing state with new rigging, sails, good engine and also updated with solar for what you think lays in your future.

This is very much a personal opinion unencumbered by facts. Coastal conditions in say Northern Europe are arguably worse then many tropical " milk run" ocean voyages. Yet these modern boats are all built to cruise there.

It is simply a refusal to face facts that wide beam is where it's at. That's gives speed and controllability. No more for ocean racing as well as cruising. The modern sailor wants speed, performance , ease of sail handling. Amenities similar to home standards ( is your home fitted out to 1950 standards !) they want that coupled with a price they can afford with " sufficient " durability and strength. Modern production boats meet that need.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by David M

Marine electronics and water makers have advanced dramatically. You also have to have a holding tank now. We have power efficient LED's. ABYC and European standards are higher. I don't know if a whole lot more has advanced for cruising sailboats over the past 30 years. They are still mostly made from lead, polyester resin, fiberglass, dacron cloth and an aluminum mast, all of which we had 30 years ago.

Hydrodynamic design, finite stress analysis , greater understanding of water flow, computer modelling, advanced materials ( Kevlar collision areas), resin infusion, better GRP construction knowledge , structural adhesives, modified silicones, stronger lighter metals ( titanium in sailing boats ) material science in general, increased use of composites. Improved lightweight high performance low emissions, high fuel economy diesels. Improved sail handling devices. High tech rigging using cordage Cruising laminate sails, higher sailing performance , Better outboard motors. Better autopilots , improved interior comfort. Better refrigeration, better power generation, better solar

Basically better everything really.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CrazyRu

I drive Volvo 240. It was designed more than 30 years ago. It was made in 1989. I bought it for $500 5 years ago. If I choose now the car to last 30 years, I'd look for the best Volvo 240 I can find, regardless of it's year. There are several other models will last, Jeep Cherokee, Mercedes 300, Honda Accord from 90-s, but i can think about nothing in 2012. I'm pretty sure there are some modern boats will last long, i just don't know which one. There is nothing wrong with asking which boat will last. Most modern boats will not...

Unfortunately your " opinions" are not based on any facts. Modern cars simply out perform old designs in all areas such as engine life , rust prevention,safety , performance, emissions. Fuel economy. Technology doesn't go backwards. 30 years ago the average 2litre petrol engine was lucky to do 100000 miles without a rebore or the body to rust after ten years. Today a 10 year old car without a rust spec is common. Modern diesels outperform almost anything , yet will quite happily do 200 000km with just ordinary servicing.

Design is iterative , technology moves forward by definition. A boat just like a car is a designed and engineered " thing " that's all.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

Modern production boats are built to make money for the builders. The materials used are just enough to pass standards.

I'm not aware any builder in the past were charities., most went out of business

Unlike several years ago, they were a bit over built b/c they really didn't know what they could take. Now, they have a good idea and they're put'm together to take a few good storms before seams start opening up.

Sure 3 inches of chopper gun CSM is " stronger " wrong. Heavily built cause you don't understand the material just means wasting money. High weight GRP with lots of resin is a poorer weaker structure then modern riven materials and low resin content.

And please what evidence have you that the " seams open up" have you ever actually sailed anywhere in a modern boat. They are tougher then the crew

At least this it what I have found at the boat shows. Take a 40'er for e.g. You walk on the deck and one can feel this slight flexing under your feet. You walk on the deck of my old 32 YO boat and it's like walking on a steel deck.

I'm been on loads of old boats with appalling GRP decks. So what

I may be wrong for some of the more expensive boats but the ones they push at the shows are pretty thin skinned. But in reality it's how they are put together. Even a boat that is thin skinned can hold up under adverse conditions if it's put together right. It's just the impact strength is compromised.

You are wrong, the 1000s of people out there cruising in modern boats know you are wrong , ask MarkJ. So you saying a modern GRP hull with Kevlar at collision areas has a compromised impact strength. ( please restudy your science)

[DiverChick71]

I KNOW!!! We go back and forth all the time! We are looking for a little bit larger boat but essentially with some of the same ideas...older or more modern. And...as you're finding in this thread....EVERYONE has an opinion to share. Our budget is a big factor, so whatever we get will be used. Sometimes I go aboard a boat and I can envision myself living aboard and the future...and other times I get massive anxiety and feel like I won't ever be able to take the plunge! Good luck...the boat shows in the spring are a great resource. We went aboard a Moody 42' CC at the last one and really loved the boat. I tend to like the Catalina's also. I've sailed a Beneteau and it was lively and fun. But then I get on an older boat (Pearson, Brewer, etc...) and get a sturdy feel. I suppose if I just keep looking, the answer will become clear. Realistically it could be YEARS before we will do anything besides coastal cruising...but it's nice to feel like I have options. Good luck!

Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl

Over the last year, we've done quite a bit of reading and looking. What we think we know for sure: under 34 feet, aft head, not a project, simple systems. Initially we decided on under 30, full keel, built to brick sheet house standards, cheaper moorage, less expensive maintenance - we liked the Dana, Nor'Sea, and particularly the Shannon 28. Of course the Dana commands a ridiculous premium and of the other boats available, they were all on the east coast and we came to the decision that shipping costs and duty essentially ruled these boats out for us.

More recently we've been thinking more about some of the lighter production boats - Catalina 28, C&C 29, Aloha 32, Erickson 34. There are a more of these around obviously and the prices are okay but we are terrified they will be too tender, have expensive issues that will be missed in survey that we won't have enough experience to fix... and given the length of time many have been on market, they will be tough to resell in a few years if we find they aren't the right boat to take us further than local.

So the prospect of new has come up. We'd prefer to not take a loan but we could and maybe even look to liveaboard to reduce expenses. Design has come a long way in 30 years and we appreciate some of the new features we have read about but also know it could be a lot of hype. Still there are many folks who have bought newer production boats on CF and circumnavigating that find them just fine.

We're just wondering if other folks have gone through similiar thought processes and research and how they eventually decided which way to go. We are looking to spend a few years crusing weekends and holidays in BC and then head to Mexico and perhaps beyond once our skills and bank account will let us. We dont want to be buying and selling ideally, we'd prefer to make the right decision first and spend a few years getting to know and outfit the boat. We know every boat is a compromise. Getting out and sailing on different boats is not an option for us.

So, anyone want to share their experiences, thoughts? Anyone? Bueller?

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, dionski.

[RabidRabbit]

Hey Dave, I must disagree with you on your car quality thoughts. Most cars 30 years old are much stronger, as they still built them from metal. The only thing new cars have on old ones, is gas mileage and emissions. New cars run great till they dont and then people replace them. Kia, Hyundia, ect. even brand new Audis are junk. Unless your a banker or somthing, with the funds to repair it. The car of yesterday was very repairable by the average joe. Todays OBDII and electronics makes it more like a DVD player or laptop needing diagnostic equipment to service. So sure if you dont work on your own car, new is better. But no way its going to last 30 years. Not like a good old volvo 240 or anything '80s volkswagen. Todays cars are built not to last.

[Boulter]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Technology doesn't go backwards.

It depends on how one defines backwards I guess. Modern running shoes with all those funky colors in the soles is on the surface an advance of technology. This "advance" leads to my $100 (plus often) shoes failing in 1 year as opposed to the 5 years I got out of $7 shoes 30 years ago that were molded in a single material.

It is well accepted among woodworkers that Stanley hand planes circa before 1950 or so are better than the post 1950 period, and it took modern companies such as Lie Nelson and Veritas to get things back in order again in modern times.

Why do I always find myself replacing zippers on coats that I didn't have to do in my youth?

Advancing technology can be used for good or evil from the consumer point of view. A blanket generalization cannot be made.

Boats of both eras have their merits depending on what one wants to optimize.

Boulter