Changing the rig- sloop or ketch?

[Jacko]

Seems to me that lots of us are loosing ( or did we Have it) the joy of sailing and the joy of a great looking boat. I sail a ketch and love having to many options for sail not to mention the joy of a wonderfull looking sailing boat. I am a solo sailer and just love getting a great spread of 4 sails up and always sail with the mizzen up even down wind ( gentlemen always sail down wind Yeh Yeh ) I am a bit bigger than Hooligan but I say try to modify the wind vane and spend some time to get a good spread you will get her flying with the right set up and belive me there is nothing like the safety of being able to drop the main and still have full control when a squal hits Cheers Jacko

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by hooligan6a

Allied built 3 or4 Seawind sloops and about 12 cutters. I don't know about the sloops but cutters
have the same mast as the ketch, only moved aft one foot(12") and a foot(12") longer
boom, same height. I will not move the mast back. But I can get a foot longer boom.

I would have to raise the mizzen boom 4 feet to clear the wind vane. I have already raised it a foot to clear the Bimini. Four more feet would make it useless.

If you've already sailed the boat quite a bit, and often without the mizzen... how does she balance? You might be fine just as you are. A big roach full batten main will likely give you more performance than a longer boom with a normal roach main.... You can also rake the mast back a little.... it's not all that scientific really.... your balance changes every time you change headsails or reef. If you have ever went throught he calcs to dertermine balance, center of effort etc... you learn it take a LOT to make much of a change in the "lead"....

[hooligan6a]

I think you are right. But a longer boom with a bigger roach would ld be even better, I would think. The people that responded about moving the wind vane
Don't seem to understand that in order to have the vane clear the mizzen boom,
I would have to move the vane 5 feet aft of the transom. The vane is attracted
To the transom by hollow stainless steel tubing. The vane weighs about 50 lbs.
It would be swinging in the breeze back there. I doubt if it would last 5minutes back there.

[caradow]

Sounds like a lot of work and expense. Are you keeping the boat forever? I would think it would be cheaper to get rid of the wind vane and put the money in a good AP/extra battery-solar etc. Extending the J and moving chainplates is expensive! You will also need larger headsails/headstay etc. The main is a separate issue. I personally would favor a ketch rig on that type of boat. They are well balanced and much easier to handle in a blow. I have a ketch and would never think of converting it to a sloop but that's just my opinion and there are a lot of those around as we all know. Good luck.

[charliehows]

why cant you just pull the mizzen boom out of the way when you're using the windvane?

[sabray]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

As mentioned there is some great utility in the mizzen, (heaving to and keeping steady at anchorage come to mind.)....but then you know that. If you ditch the mizzen, you could get a full batten main sail with huge roach and probably perform alot better. You might get away with leaving the main mast where it is. (you ought to know by now how it balances without the mizzen) I'm probably in the minority, but I'll take lee helm to weather helm anyday anyway.

Interesting I found lee helm a bitch. In my experience it exponentially effected helm. Where weather helm will build tell it is untenable. With lee helm I gave gone from sloppy to **** we can't point up. Interesting because now I wonder if I just missed the subtle lee helm while I fight the blatant weather helm and then reef. Guessing years ago I didn't look out for the lee helm as well as I should have. Anyone wish to grant me twenty years youth and ill go check my theory.

[FSMike]

Please don't modify a delightful design. Sell it to somebody who will appreciate it and buy yourself what you want.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by sabray

Interesting I found lee helm a bitch. In my experience it exponentially effected helm. Where weather helm will build tell it is untenable. With lee helm I gave gone from sloppy to **** we can't point up.

Potential lee helm is a killer. In normal conditions she may be perfectly fine but when you have a deep reefed main and storm jib it may well be impossible to tack or even sail effectively to windward in gusty conditions.

Even well respected sloops can suffer from this problem. Especially once roller reefing headsails are added.

Take her out in a decent solid 30 knots gusting 35 and see how she feels. If there is a hint of lee helm when hard pressed to windward with a deep reefed main and no mizzen it will be much worse without the windage from a mizzen mast to help.

I have often wondered why the old backstays'l idea (a small jib set on the backstay as a mizzen) never took off. I tried it once and it sure powered up the rig. Seems like it would be a low windage, low cost alternative to mizzen masts.

[CrazyRu]

Mizzen interacts with windvane while boat is going upwind only. However on a Ketch there is no need in windvane while sailing upwind. Ketch will sail itself just fine. I don't really see a problem. Just don't use the windvane upwind...

[GaryMayo]

Loosing a pope and converting a mizzen to a sloop seems like too much religion interaction for one year. I would put that off a year or so.

Looking out onto a body of water and seeing a two masted sailboat is a pleasure to behold. If you don't like the fine lady as she is, sell her to someone that will appreciate her, and go get a sloop.

To butcher a ketch seems somehow sacrilegious.

[hooligan6a]

Gary, That's my point, a ketch really LOOKS sweet. But on a 31 foot boat the Mizzen sail is almost useless. I have owned 3 ketches and probably only used the mizzen maybe
10% of the time. if anything I think the boat will sail better to windward without the mizzen mast.

[charliehows]

depends on the ketch, mine wont tack without the mizzen if im using a genoa - this is only a problem in tight harbours etc, at sea it means upwind without the mizzen it'll steer using main and jib setting, barely needs the windvane. On a reach the mizzen gives quite a bit of extra push. downwind it can be useful sheeted in tight as a warning of gybe. with the jib backed against the mizzen hove to dropping and raising the main is a doddle. Too much wind come up? drop the main instead of reefing. I lost my jib tackle once running downwind under a bridge, the mizzen kept on pushing (didnt have the main up) til i could get to some clear water to get it fixed. I keep finding new uses for the thing, i like it so much i just bought a new fully battened mizzen sail.

[hooligan6a]

"barely needs the windvane." This is true when going to weather But in the trades I need a wind vane.

[charliehows]

Originally Posted by hooligan6a

"barely needs the windvane." This is true when going to weather But in the trades I need a wind vane.

i dont get it. running downwind you dont need the mizzen, if it interferes with the windvane why cant you just hoist the boom up or off to the side? Lot cheaper than changing the rig. I'm not saying you dont need a windvane, i just cant see why you'd go to all the trouble of changing the standing rigging when it should be possible to solve your problem by adjusting the rigging and sail choice.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by hooligan6a

"barely needs the windvane." This is true when going to weather But in the trades I need a wind vane.

Down wind is where mine works. Going to weather it's a no go, but then the wind generator on the mizzen feeds the autopilot going to weather and not down wind.