ARC as a way to look at how different types of boats sail

[Polux]

By the way, the Previlege 37 is a Marc Lombard design and I love Marc Lombard cats. Have you seen his last 37ft design?



Comet Catamaran 37 CAT - Comar Yachts

I made some post about it on my blog.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

By the way, the Previlege 37 is a Marc Lombard design and I love Marc Lombard cats. Have you seen his last 37ft design?

(...)

I made some post about it on my blog.

I have seen a new new new Privilege that was in the vela latina basin just prior to the ARC. Possibly an ARC boat. Beautiful from afar, but badly lacking in finish close up (close up = about 8 feet). Heaps of bent and welded SS tubing too. Cheap.

It is not always that a fine design translates to a finely built boat.

I looked up the web I think she was "Serie 5" perhaps. Gray hull.

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I have seen a new new new Privilege that was in the vela latina basin just prior to the ARC. Possibly an ARC boat. Beautiful from afar, but badly lacking in finish close up (close up = about 8 feet). Heaps of bent and welded SS tubing too. Cheap.

It is not always that a fine design translates to a finely built boat.

I looked up the web I think she was "Serie 5" perhaps. Gray hull.

b.

I don't know the new cats. The old ones were well built. but I know the mono-hulls made by them, the felling, a bit better build than Beneteau and Jeanneau, but old designs. They tried a new line, what they call the cruising line, a mix between a cat and a monohull, boats with two engines, but it was a flop. The new cats also lack direction and purpose in what regards design (the designers have to know what they want from the boat).

The last time I heard about them they were bankrupt. There is a site and it seems they are still in business but it looks they are just trying to survive: Too many boats and models for so many problems and so few boats sold.

Lanester. Alliaura Marine est en liquidation judiciaire | Ouest France Entreprises

Regarding boat design and built quality: If the design is not good, it can have the better quality available, it will never be a good boat. If the design is good and the building is bad, it will not be a good boat, but if the design is good and the building average, it can still be a good boat for the price.

Regarding the ARC the 2th Oyster 825 is approaching quickly the Philocat but it seems to me they are using the engine. How the well are they doing over 10K on 8K wind?

[barnakiel]

Yes. How odd. Privilege that built so many fine boats go bankrupt while so many lower-end less quality cat makers survived and flourish.

It seems if you can't find your own sweet price/quality/market niche then that's that, even if you make good boats. Adaptability and market research.

The way I see it, this may lead to very few middle of the road boat builders left soon. HR and the likes seems to be the next to go. We will be left with Bavarias and Oysters. And then Hoeks and Huismans for those who are actually rich.

BTW You know the new Bavaria is not Bavaria anymore. Now it is Varianta ;-)

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

(...)

Regarding the ARC the 2th Oyster 825 is approaching quickly the Philocat but it seems to me they are using the engine. How the well are they doing over 10K on 8K wind?

Perhaps beam reaching under a blister kite?

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Yes. How odd. Privilege that built so many fine boats go bankrupt while so many lower-end less quality cat makers survived and flourish.

It seems if you can't find your own sweet price/quality/market niche then that's that, even if you make good boats. Adaptability and market research.

The way I see it, this may lead to very few middle of the road boat builders left soon. HR and the likes seems to be the next to go. We will be left with Bavarias and Oysters. And then Hoeks and Huismans for those who are actually rich.

BTW You know the new Bavaria is not Bavaria anymore. Now it is Varianta ;-)

b.

The Varianta is a great boat. Sure it has kind of an Ikea interior but all that is important is sound. Not anything to do with Bavaria. Completely different clients.

No, HR is not menaced not also the dozens of brands that make expensive expensive high quality boats to several market segments. They do that for decades and will continue to do it. They have a market.

Previlege went down because they did not knew what the hell they were doing neither to whom they were producing boats. Their last successful boat was the Feeling line, the 39 and the 44 and that was more than 10 years ago....they still produce them. With the cats happened the same. That may still work on the US but here, a 10 year old boat on the catalog? seriously? In 4 years you start to see the design evolution and the boat starts to look a bit old, in 6 or 7 it will be outdated, nobody will be buying it, there will be more interesting boats on the market.

They made some strange big monohulls boats that nobody wanted...big market misjudgment and then again they screw up with the Privilege serie 6 with wheel station kind of motorboat fly bridge that nobody asked for or wanted. In fact it does not make sense on a sailboat.

Too many errors and misjudgments. They had a brand with a long and good story, an innovative brand and then they just started to invent things and concepts nobody wanted. I was surprised that they have survived for so long. That has nothing to do with quality but with not developing the boats on the right direction and with mismanagement. Sure, a though competition made the rest but you see brands like Katana or Outremer, that make more expensive boats than Lagoons or FP, surviving with no problem.

[barnakiel]

Sure. Variantas are great boats as are Delphias Elans Fortunas Gibseas and Comets.

And sure HR will never fall. Just like Najad would not. Privillege. Garcia. All are great boats. CORRECTION: were great boats.

Nothing is fixed in this rapid changing world. But one needs sound backing plates anyways.

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Sure. Variantas are great boats as are Delphias Elans Fortunas Gibseas and Comets.

And sure HR will never fall. Just like Najad would not. Privillege. Garcia. All are great boats. CORRECTION: were great boats.

Nothing is fixed in this rapid changing world. But one needs sound backing plates anyways.

b.

Garcia did not fall. What I mean is that it is not for a better quality factor that brands disappear if the price goes with that quality and they are targeting the right market segment. Najad fall because instead of continuing producing high quality boats at a small scale, invested strongly to become a medium producer. There was just not a big enough market for that and HR that was already doing that, could produce boats with a similar quality in a less expensive way. That's all, if they had maintained a small scale operation , like they had for many years, they would have not problems in surviving.

And yet they survive. If you want one you can have it. They have been bought recently by Swedestar but I advise you to buy a Swedestar instead They will be at the Dusseldorf boat show with a Najad 440AC (great boat)

News input
See in my blog the post: "Now Najad are faster sailingboats"

Regard Varianta it seems to me that you did not understand what that is about. If i was younger and was looking for a boat probably I would buy a Varianta 37. I made also a post on the blog about it. The boat points not for the same type of sailors that buy Bavaria: It has a very good hull building, a very good rudder, a very good keel (Dehler 38) and it is an enjoyable fast cruiser, one that you can upgrade and improve when you can, meaning when you have the money. That boat is about sailing and cruising, not about a posh interior. The funny thing is that even if the Varianta 37 is the most inexpensive boat around Beneteau or Bavaria sell incomparably more 37/38 footers...showing that what cruisers most want is not a good inexpensive simple sailboat with a basic but functional interior but one that looks good, I mean the interior

Yachting Monthly review | VAr Yachts

.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Perhaps beam reaching under a blister kite?

b.

Humm, now that Oyster 825 is making 9,8K speed with 4.8K wind. Maybe some magic involved? all the boats on the lead now are sailing with light winds, the other oyster is making 3,4K and the faster boat is the FY61 8much faster than the Oyster 825 with light winds) making 6.3K.

It seems I had read well the weather and boat performance when i said that on the light winds the Fy61 would go away from the moxi 61. He is way ahead now doing 6,3k while the Moxie is only doing 4.1K. The Philocat is going to overtake the Oyster 825 that is sailing (unless it puts the engine on) and if the other one puts the engine off, it will arrive first too. It is going to close again on the Moxie 61 but i don't believe it has time to catch it.

That is what I call a prognostic lets see if it is an informed one.

But I will say more, on the light wind conditions the sly 47 will arrive like a bullet, leaving much behind that incredibly well sailed (and fast) Oyster 48 light wave. The X55 and probably little Grand Soleil 43 (I dreamed of having one for some years) will overtake it too as well as the Outremer 49 that has been making a great recovery.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Philo is 45.
...
Felci I must look this one up. Somehow this one failed to catch my dock dog eye.

I say let the fastest boat win, whichever style she is. I love them all and the pretty one twice as much!

b.

Have a look also at that Grand Soleil 43 (if you don't know the boat) to the Azuree 40 nad to the Sly 47.

It is possible that sly becomes a bigger player on the industry. They have bought Grand Soleil (a much bigger shipyard) and make very fast performance cruisers, very well built, but obviously not cheap. Look at the new baby, the sly 43: "Lean and mean with a touch of class" is a good definition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3zEJZlAcL0

[/QUOTE]

[Polux]

Look at this image and tell me how can someone says that speed among cruising boats cannot make a big difference on a time it takes a crossing



Let's look at the last boats, not counting the ones that departed much later or stopped in Cabo Verde and the loser, by far is an American Island Packet 38. certainly it is badly sailed but even so it is impressive since it is much behind all other boats. Even much smaller boats are now way ahead. An old Allegro 33 is next, a bit ahead an also old small Forgus 35 sails side by side with an old Mason 44, an old Amel Maramu. A bit ahead a Nauticat 42 a Southerly 42 a Jeanneau Sunfizz 40 and a Nauticat 43.

What have all these boats in common, with the exception of the Southerly 42?: they are old boats and older models. to those we would have joined the Moody 47 if he did not had sailed to Cabo Verde. I don't believe in coincidences, at least such a big one so I believe we can conclude that older designs have a worse performance then newer boats, specially if we consider that a recent Amel is much much ahead.

This can look obvious but I have been repeatedly said otherwise on this forum. Also has been said that performance boats, if charged, are not faster then the previous ones, so let's look at the last boats among modern performance cruisers: two First a 40.7 and a certainly very badly sailed Firt 44.7, at about the middle of the fleet. Al the others, and they are many, are ahead, some much ahead.

That is also relevant in what regards the comparison of old designs, mostly middle wight boats with relatively modern performance cruisers.

Now that the the obvious have been stated let's see the nicer stuff
or not so nice

The Oyster 825 that was motoring continued motoring at 9K while all the surrounding boats were doing 4K speed and arrived first. in very light winds the Sy61 finished next doing about 4K, next come the Philocat that it seems to me that also used the engine on the last part (it was doing 8K when all others where doing less than 4k). Then the second Oyster started the engine and passed the Moxie61 doing 8K while the Moxie 61 was making 2/3K, then it comes the X55, also seeming to be motoring and passes the Moxie 61 that finally pissed to be overtaken by everybody the Moxie seems to have turn the engine on and finishes with the x55. There is only a problem, that X55 was on the racing division and should not have used the engine. Maybe the Moxie had just bad luckk and fall on a hole without wind but the steady speed for many miles, around 7.5K, maintained by the X55 on 5K winds looks very suspicious to me.

All the others except the FY 61 were on the cruising division (so they could use the engine). Regarding the Multihulls it is not clear: They have not a racing division? This motoring finale (except for the Fy61 that sailed all the way) was very confusing and not fair.

The Sly 47 entered next, followed by the Oyster 48 light wave and the small Grand Soleil 43 and all these seem to be sailing, going at similar speeds and tacking with the wind....and that's all for now.

[Paul Elliott]

Perhaps in addition to boat performance, weather routing might also be an issue?


Some boats will make poor route choices, and sometimes these things just sneak up on you.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Perhaps in addition to boat performance, weather routing might also be an issue?


Some boats will make poor route choices, and sometimes these things just sneak up on you.

Yes, I had looked at that at the beginning of the passage but basically there were two course followed, the ones that went North, way over the shortest course line and the ones that followed the shortest course line. Very few went considerably below that line.

The two groups were big in number of boats and the ones that I mentioned as the older and slowest were on the shortest course line as a big number of other boats. As the number of boats on the same course as those slower boats were big, possibly the majority, those results are meaningful and not because they had chose a particularly bad course, different from the average (you can go back with the tracker to see what I mean).

As I had suspected on the beginning, the course line over the direct course was faster but also meant the possibility of meeting stronger winds, as it was the case.

Regarding new arrivals: After that pretty and well sailed Grand Soleil 43 arrived the big and beautiful 22 year's old Arrayan II, this boat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tHL-96N4No

Then very close a beautiful Dufour 45e, a great recent performance cruising
boat and the first of the inexpensive mass production cruisers, meaning by that a less expensive boat than all the others that come ahead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBgUcWbUawQ

And then at some distance two other boats, a slightly older Outremer 49 and a recent XP44, with the XP overtaking the bigger cat almost over the finish line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs2A5vi6qOw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYm4brVL_4c

Then an older X45, from the Xyachts racing line, followed very closed by an also old X442 performance cruiser, followed by another XP44 followed by the first of the "old" Swans, a 56 that was presented in 1996 and built till 2006.

In what regards older boats the Swans were not only beaten by the always incredibly well sailed Scarlet Oyster (Oyster 48 light wave 1987/1991) but also by the X442 (1993/2003).

A great performance the one of the Xyachts, older and new ones.
After the Swan 56 a big racing boat, already an old design, the Challenger 72, a new Oyster 655, and then the really first oldie, a good one, a Swan S&S 65, completely recovered and modified with a new rig (from Ketch to Sloop). A great performance to one of the fastest performance cruisers of its time (already with a fin keel). It is astonishing how a very fast performance cruiser with almost 40 years still manage to have the same performance of a medium weight luxury cruiser of our days, like the Oyster 655.

and then, not very far away comes the first modern 40ft performance cruiser, the Azuree 40, certainly a very well sailed boat but also a great performance cruiser and the 2nd of the mass production inexpensive cruisers to arrive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksX0t3NeKu4

and that's all for now, the next boat, a big older 72ft racer Challenger did not arrive yet as the one that follows it, a very well sailed 1980/85 Swan 51.

[Polux]

This almost one day interval between post can give an idea of the difference in time regarding the different time passages, that are measured already in several days.

Since the last post and after that Swan 51 that was not far away when I made the last post, followed at same distance an amazing and beautiful old racing boat, with a great sailing performance, for the boat and the crew. I am talking about the 60fter Peter Von Seestermuehe a German racing boat built before WWII and designed by Henry Gruber , this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti7Tbijp_l0

What a beautiful boat!!!
Next it comes the first modern middle weight cruiser with less than 60ft, a Najad 57, then an Outremer 49.
The Najad 570, a great cruising boat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keG7SWnvh7w

Not far from the Outremer 49 a First 47.7 (14 tear old design) and a Baltic 52, a great performance cruiser designed more than 20 years ago. Followed a Oyster 575 followed by tho boats that entered at about the same time, the first condocat, a Lagoon 450, proving that on a mostly downwind passage it can be quite fast and the first of the medium heavy cruisers with less than 50ft, a XC 45 that even if optimized for upwind sailing shows that it can go quite fast on a downwind passage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2A4iqRUdDU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFywOfUx2tc

And that's all for now.

[barnakiel]

OK

So now that we have bashed the pigs and extolled the greyhounds ... anyone making any use of the data?

It is good to be full of opinions but twice as good to be half-full of facts.

Like what size what speed how much money to buy 0.1kts of VMG. etc.

?

b.