St Pete Forbids People From Staying Overnight on Their Boats???

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Sorry about those weird issues you have on the other side of the pond.

I never had to give it a thought if I could sleep somewhere on my own boat over here in Europe.

Most of the time you drop your hook where you want and spent your night there. In many places even just as long as you want and for free.
Seems like it's better to avoid the US even though it surely has some nice sides to explore.

Looking forward to bringing my boat over your way. Yes, the US tries to pretend it’s all about freedom and all about low taxes but in reality, that’s all a lot of marketing BS.

The thing is, we have a lot of variance in our culture here. Each state almost has a different culture. So, don’t be afraid to visit. There are plenty of great places. You just have to know in advance which places have the jerks.

And what’s odd is there is no correlation between boating jerks and land jerks. New York for instance. Well known for the land jerks. Ha ha. (No offense Rslifkin - talking about the ocean here. And the sound. ) When it comes to boating? It’s extremely friendly. A great place. Nothing like Florida.

There are probably some reasons for Florida being so anti-boat. And that Hass to do with the boat bums that have littered the area with derelicts. People running meth labs on boats at anchor. Things like that. To tell you the truth, there are many anchorages here in Florida that I am nervous to stay in. The caliber of people is pretty frightening and they will rob your boat if you leave it. There are some like that here. And just the sheer number of boats. I think everyone has a boat in Florida. Plus we all visit. That’s a lot of boats.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Sorry about those weird issues you have on the other side of the pond.

I never had to give it a thought if I could sleep somewhere on my own boat over here in Europe.

Most of the time you drop your hook where you want and spent your night there. In many places even just as long as you want and for free.
Seems like it's better to avoid the US even though it surely has some nice sides to explore.

I think you are reaching a faulty opinion.

Chotu, who has been boating for 35 years took his boat for the first time to a boat yard not a marina.
The specific boat yard does not allow people to stay on their boats.
So Chotu just did not think to ask if he could, completely reasonable based on this boating experiences.

There are many places in the US where you can just anchor anywhere that is reasonable.
But if you take your boat to a private business they have their own rules and some will allow you to stay on you boat and some will not.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

I think you are reaching a faulty opinion.



Chotu, who has been boating for 35 years took his boat for the first time to a boat yard not a marina.

The specific boat yard does not allow people to stay on their boats.

So Chotu just did not think to ask if he could, completely reasonable based on this boating experiences.



There are many places in the US where you can just anchor anywhere that is reasonable.

But if you take your boat to a private business they have their own rules and some will allow you to stay on you boat and some will not.

Still sounds weird that they are not communicating that upfront to a potential client.
I'd think it to be rather the norm that the owner stays during that sort of work being carried out. I certainly would (even though I do it myself).
But hey, what do I know about how folks do business in the US.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Still sounds weird that they are not communicating that upfront to a potential client.
I'd think it to be rather the norm that the owner stays during that sort of work being carried out. I certainly would (even though I do it myself).
But hey, what do I know about how folks do business in the US.

Apparently, you know an awful lot. Because you are right on track with this comment.

One thing I’m going to do to help this business on the way out, because they are good people, they are just kind of new with the business, is I’m going to submit to them a written guide for their customers. Because there was no communication whatsoever.

Even as I pulled up to the dock, they helped me tie up and then they disappeared. I’m like now what?

They need a little bit of a roadmap for the customers so the customer knows what to expect for the process.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Apparently, you know an awful lot. Because you are right on track with this comment.



One thing I’m going to do to help this business on the way out, because they are good people, they are just kind of new with the business, is I’m going to submit to them a written guide for their customers. Because there was no communication whatsoever.



Even as I pulled up to the dock, they helped me tie up and then they disappeared. I’m like now what?



They need a little bit of a roadmap for the customers so the customer knows what to expect for the process.

Great idea.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Still sounds weird that they are not communicating that upfront to a potential client.
I'd think it to be rather the norm that the owner stays during that sort of work being carried out. I certainly would (even though I do it myself).
But hey, what do I know about how folks do business in the US.

The "norm" in the US is that the boat owner is not a liveaboard -- "most" boat owners live on land. Is it not true also in Europe?

I have never encountered a marina OR a boat yard which would NOT allow us to remain on our boat while on the hard, in any country including the USA (even when we had a 5 year old child). But apparently they exist.

I suspect those that do not permit it, do not make it a habit of announcing this fact to everyone because they assume that 95% of their customers do NOT live on their boats.

If this had been me, I might have also made the mistake of not asking, and just assumed that it would be okay to stay aboard, based on my decades of previous experience.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

The "norm" in the US is that the boat owner is not a liveaboard -- "most" boat owners live on land. Is it not true also in Europe?



I have never encountered a marina OR a boat yard which would NOT allow us to remain on our boat while on the hard, in any country including the USA (even when we had a 5 year old child). But apparently they exist.



I suspect those that do not permit it, do not make it a habit of announcing this fact to everyone because they assume that 95% of their customers do NOT live on their boats.



If this had been me, I might have also made the mistake of not asking, and just assumed that it would be okay to stay aboard, based on my decades of previous experience.

Hmm. Agree, yes unlikely that the majority are liveaboards over here too, but that really depends on the location.
Maybe my view was a bit tainted by being a liveaboard myself and having worked in companies building and designing very large yachts. The latter always have crews and reps.

Still if there is such important work to be done I would think if it it would be my boat yard or rigging service I'd actually like to have the owner or owners rep around.
Especially as this seems to be a very special one-off boat.

Anyway, I do think it is a good idea to have a brief owner's welcome brochure at hand, outlining the rules of the yard and possibly a few lines on local transport, lodgings and stores.
We did that when I was working for a large shipyard in the Netherlands and it was very much welcomed by the clients and/or their crews and/or reps.

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

...I have never encountered a marina OR a boat yard which would NOT allow us to remain on our boat while on the hard, in any country including the USA (even when we had a 5 year old child). But apparently they exist.

If this had been me, I might have also made the mistake of not asking, and just assumed that it would be okay to stay aboard, based on my decades of previous experience.

We got caught-out with one in Rome, though that arose despite my having asked the question in advance and receiving an emailed reply confirming that we could. Once the yard manager found and read his copy of their incorrectly worded email, we compromised: He allowed us to stay aboard 'discretely' for the ten days before we flew home and then we got a hotel room for the week we were there relaunching the following spring.
At one time a few years ago there was a blanket edict that stopped anyone living aboard in a Spanish boatyard; I'd be surprised if it's stayed that way as the Spanish yards were half-empty with everyone heading along the coast to Portugal.

[Dockhead]

Hey Chotu:

I'm sorry you've been through this but glad you got it worked out. I sense that one of the several purposes of the thread is looking for commiseration, and I'm glad to provide that. I cruised those waters for a couple of decades and am glad to be gone from there, for exactly the same reasons as what you've experienced there.

The root problem is that every foot of that coastline (practically) has been sold expensively and most of it is potential waterfront condo land. The owners of marinas and boatyards have expensive mortgages to pay and have to gouge their customers to make ends meet. To boot the insurance requirements are ridiculous, and they live in fear of a claim which will be refused, especially a liability claim. Back in the day you could anchor in the canals to get away from the crowded anchorages but homeowners' associations in cahoots with municipalities have mostly nixed that. Then as if that were not enough, you have the toilet police on your back all the time, oh, and hurricanes! Like the one which just destroyed my father's house. What fun!

Your fellow cruisers are hardened by this atmosphere of expensive, inhospitable marinas and crowded anchorages. By the time we left that place, it was not that much fun anymore.

A tip which will be too late for you but maybe will help others is to look for boatyards which are as far as possible up rivers as far away as possible from cities and therefore far from condo-land. There is one we used to haul out in far up the Caloosahatchee which was great, and I believe there are a couple of good ones around Green Cove on the Atlantic side.

Besides that all I can say is -- Go North, Young Man. The further you get away from the expensive waterfront property and the closer to working fishing harbors, the better. The colder the weather, the more friendly and helpful all the people around are. The higher proportion of work boats and fishing boats to "yachts", the better.

I also find it much nicer on this side of the Atlantic. The South Coast of England is a fabulous cruising grounds (incomparably better than Florida), but is crowded and expensive in summer (at least, relative to other Northern European waters, not indeed to Florida). I used to solve that by staying out cruising other areas during the summer, and coming back to the Solent in September. Just across the Channel in France there is practically wilderness, with unlimited anchorages and inexpensive municipal harbors.

The Baltic is even better; I berth my 54-footer for as little as €10 a night in some Swedish harbors (actually as little as free) and rarely more than €30 outside of the big cities, and even in the center of Stockholm it's less than €100. And there are unlimited anchorages.

Skilled labor is also much easier to find over here; on the Isle of Wight most top electricians, shipwrights, etc. were taking no more than £50 and sometimes £45 per hour, and always far better quality and more efficient (i.e., fewer hours for a given job) than anything in the U.S.

OK, that's thread drift. But more concretely -- I would suggest that as soon as you get the boat sailable, you head off and don't stop until you get to Maine at least, or better yet, Canada. And enjoy your cruising! You WILL get through this! It DOES get better!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

The "norm" in the US is that the boat owner is not a liveaboard -- "most" boat owners live on land. Is it not true also in Europe?

I have never encountered a marina OR a boat yard which would NOT allow us to remain on our boat while on the hard, in any country including the USA (even when we had a 5 year old child). But apparently they exist.

I suspect those that do not permit it, do not make it a habit of announcing this fact to everyone because they assume that 95% of their customers do NOT live on their boats.

If this had been me, I might have also made the mistake of not asking, and just assumed that it would be okay to stay aboard, based on my decades of previous experience.

Been there, done that.

The norm in Northern Europe is that of course you stay on board -- where else are you supposed to go?

It is usually against the rules to stay on board if the boat is on the hard, but everyone does it. I've lived that weird treehouse life for weeks and even months at a time with the full knowledge and even friendly support of the boatyard owners -- in Cowes, and in Denmark.

But in the U.S. it's different, and the the biggest factor is probably insurance. And besides insurance, there are probably issues with services not provided or expected by people using the boatyard as a marina. Even back in the 90's we had some issues staying on board in boatyard marinas very much like what Chotu experienced. After that, we always asked. I'm sure Chotu will be sure to next time, too, and this thread will be a great service to some of the people reading it.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Apparently, you know an awful lot. Because you are right on track with this comment.

One thing I’m going to do to help this business on the way out, because they are good people, they are just kind of new with the business, is I’m going to submit to them a written guide for their customers. Because there was no communication whatsoever.

Even as I pulled up to the dock, they helped me tie up and then they disappeared. I’m like now what?

They need a little bit of a roadmap for the customers so the customer knows what to expect for the process.

They need to assign a Project Manager for each major job they land!!

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I think you would get better responses if you followed the old journalistic approach. Back in highschool, I took journalism for one of my english credits and there is a very specific way you are supposed to write stories:
- Title: As best you can with a handful of words, convey the purpose of the article.
- First Paragraph: Again, as best you can in a paragraph summarize the article. The reader should get probably 70-80% of the information out of just this paragraph.
- Body: Provide details on the remaining 20-30%.
- Last 2-3 paragraphs: If space and time allow, cover any tangential information that's not important to the main subject.

Modern journalism has taken "tabloid journalism" as the standard. Write a salacious headline, follow up with an inflammatory first paragraph. Have a wandering body that brings up more inflammatory items that are at best tangential to the story. Maybe include some info buried near the end that gives a clue as to what is really happening.

In the old days of physical papers, once you got past the front page, there was little advantage to tabloid journalism. By the time the reader got to page 5, generally, they had already bought the paper.

In the modern world of getting news off the internet, every click comes with monetized advertisements, so a simple story about a lost dog benefits from making it a wild story if it gets more clicks.

I realize in the heat of the moment, it may be difficult but I think you would receive more effective and less confrontational responses if you followed this pattern when starting threads. In many cases, you may actually reach the answer without even posting as it forces you to think thru the issues without the emotions taking control.

Example :
- Title: Are liveaboards allowed in working yards in St. Pete?
- First Paragraph: I brought my boat in to have rigging work at a yard. While I didn't confirm ahead of time, a staff member at the yard found me there after closing and informed me that liveaboard is not allowed and inferred that it was due to local ordinance. Is this true?
- Body: I am at a working yard as opposed to a marina with typical facilities meant to accommodate liveaboard boaters. I'm spending thousands on work at this yard and I expected it wouldn't be an issue or they would make an exception for me to stay aboard at the yard. Working yards in other areas have allowed it so I expected it to be the same. I'm unclear if this is the yard or the city making this rule.....etc...and so on...
- Tangential info at the end: On a disturbing side note, while I was out of sight and inside the boat, some people walking by made rude and sarcastic comments about my boat. Admittedly, it's in rough cosmetic shape due to exposure to two recent hurricanes and some prior work that left paint/epoxy splashes all around it but they implied it should be vandalized.

I think posting in this format, may have answered your question without even starting the thread or at least got you to direct answers to your questions more quickly without the confrontation.

Awesome Post! I just wish journalists nowadays would follow it. Or at the very least learn spelling and grammar . . . . . or at LEAST spellcheck . . . . . I have a difficult time having any faith whatsoever in what some news stories peddle when they can't even take the time to spellcheck . . .

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound

Awesome Post! I just wish journalists nowadays would follow it. Or at the very least learn spelling and grammar . . . . . or at LEAST spellcheck . . . . . I have a difficult time having any faith whatsoever in what some news stories peddle when they can't even take the time to spellcheck . . .

While I don't like it, I can live with spelling mistakes. I can give them the benefit of the doubt that they might just be honest mistakes.

The tabloid aspect is where I have issue because it's not a mistake but very much intentional. Especially when it's done repeatedly and systematically.

If you just want to vent...do it but state in the title that you are venting...something like "Venting about not being allowed to liveaboard at a working yard..."

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Still sounds weird that they are not communicating that upfront to a potential client.
I'd think it to be rather the norm that the owner stays during that sort of work being carried out. I certainly would (even though I do it myself).
But hey, what do I know about how folks do business in the US.

Vast majority of boat owners don't live aboard, so it's sketchy presuming that it's OK.

Reality it's hit and miss and varies by location. There are areas with large full time cruiser populations where it's common place. We've done it but always confirmed ahead of time that it's OK.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Vast majority of boat owners don't live aboard, so it's sketchy presuming that it's OK.



Reality it's hit and miss and varies by location. There are areas with large full time cruiser populations where it's common place. We've done it but always confirmed ahead of time that it's OK.

See #142 [emoji846]