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**newhaul** · 11-12-2020, 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yihang

Yes, that's why I said take it for what it is.

For sure diesel will be available for industrial use for some time to come but I wonder about it's availability to recreational boating. After all, the charter market and marina set can probably get by with electric that leaves the cruisers, which make up a niche within a niche market.

In 10 years when I'm in the market I don't think a new diesel engine would be wise or even available if the ban on new IC engines extends to recreational boating.

Things are moving fast. I think we can all agree governments don't give a crap about recreational boaters and certainly not cruisers.

Don't know where your at but here in 90% of America it won't happen because we need diesel marine engines to feed the planet.

Yihang · 11-12-2020, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by newhaul

Don't know where your at but here in 90% of America it won't happen because we need diesel marine engines to feed the planet.

hahaha. I suppose that number is supported with exhaustive research.

It's alright mate. Maybe your right. We shall see.

**newhaul** · 11-12-2020, 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yihang

hahaha. I suppose that number is supported with exhaustive research.

It's alright mate. Maybe your right. We shall see.

The entire pacific us pollock fishing fleet as well as half of the arctic crabbing fleet is homeported here in the Seattle area .
And yes actually I have been keeping myself up to date on all of the stuff that is on both sides of the mmgw fight. Not to mention that 99% of the world's shipping is on direct drive diesel powered ships. Sorry but pure electric shipping is not ever going to be a reality to energy intensive unless we regress about 250 years and do it all via sailing ships made of hand hewn wood.

Yihang · 11-12-2020, 22:20

I agree. Not talking commercial here. Talking about lack of new recreational engines, support and lack of availability of fuel for recreational boating.

Jets will use jet fuel for awhile. Doesn’t mean we can get it easily.

NPCampbell · 11-12-2020, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yihang

So if you built a lagoon 560 out of carbon then you have 12 tons of battery to play with. That's 43 BMW i3 batteries at 40kwh each for a total of 1726kwh.

Where does the 12 tons weight savings come from? An HH 50 catamaran built out of carbon fiber weights 26026 pounds. The HH OC50 built out of vinylester e-glass is 28991 pounds for a difference of 2965 pounds or 1.5 tons.

Yihang · 11-12-2020, 22:51

I was talking about carbon nanotube graphene pre preg. The manufacturer reckons 70% weight savings over aluminium hull of 54 foot. OCtenders carbon is 20%less than glass version.

Im perfectly fine with accepting a smaller percentage. 20% is still 6 tons on a heavy cat.

Numbers are pretty arbitrary at the moment. The point i was trying to make is boats need to be lighter to accommodate electric propulsion. And that heavy cats havr the advantage there because it is easier to reduce their weight than schioning which is already very light.

BigBeakie · 12-12-2020, 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chotu

Absolutely

My response is through the lens of cruising, which assumes anchoring our, motoring for days on end occasionally, few if any docks, etc.

In other words: you’d need that monster diesel generator that weighs as much as the propulsion system in a standard ICE boat.

If cruising, there’s no free lunch. You need the full diesel power and the diesel to burn to run it. If you’re going day sailing or for the weekend, electric makes perfect sense. So long as your utility costs are reasonable at the dock.

This idea that EP is only valid if you're day sailing and can get back to a marina to plug in for recharging is only valid if you sail where solar is relatively ineffective, or the boat cannot carry much solar.

If you have a cat that can carry larger solar arrays, you do not need a monster diesel generator. You can energy balance your house loads at anchor to your solar capacity and get by with a modest genset for recharging when it's very cloudy/rainy for several days.

Rennsail · 12-12-2020, 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yihang

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...ext-year-81254

Take it for what it is but Volvo is ending diesel engine production next year in it's cars.

That is likely a big deal for Europe (and maybe other locations), but almost a non-event in the US. Diesel passenger vehicles have a tiny share of the market here. Volvo diesels have a microscopic portion of the market.

As I stated earlier, I really don't have an opinion. Ideally, I'd like all electric aux propulsion to be viable and cost effective, but it is very clear that is not the case today. We need continued improvements in solar, wind and battery efficiency to make (diesel) generator-free electric auxiliary power for sailing yachts a viable and safe alternative to just diesel motors.

BigBeakie · 12-12-2020, 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Once again you miss out the important facts.

Add the weight of a diesel plus attached generator, which you state is necessary, plus cabling plus fuel plus fuel tanks etc etc and blind Freedy can see you are being misleading.

The crux of the failure lies here...... " On average we found that the two propellers could only produce an hourly net charge of 0.6% of the total battery capacity, equivalent to 336 Watts."

good luck if you own a mono with one motor.

from... Electric Shock by Jimmy Cornell | Nautic Magazine

Thats right, the average speeds/conditions in the real world for that passage would only allow an average of 168 watts per hour per motor.

Thank goodness they didnt run into bad weather or lose the rig where extended / full power motoring was required.

Well, Slug, I actually have EP onboard and have done the analysis, in detail. Have you? Would you care to detail the "important facts" that I'm leaving out? By the way, what boat do you have again?

By the way, did you read the part in Cornell's post where he sailed for 10 hours at 8.2 knots average under regen, and at the end there was a NET charge added to the batteries of 5.2 kWh??? Hmmm?

So the OV regen replaced all the charge used during the 10 hour trip and still put 5.2 kWh NET charge back in. Doesn't seem too shoddy to me.

**Pete7** · 12-12-2020, 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

By the way, did you read the part in Cornell's post where he sailed for 10 hours at 8.2 knots average under regen, and at the end there was a NET charge added to the batteries of 5.2 kWh??? Hmmm?

So the OV regen replaced all the charge used during the 10 hour trip and still put 5.2 kWh NET charge back in. Doesn't seem too shoddy to me.

Ah, now that is slightly different to the way I first read it, on board consumption plus 1/2kw an hour to charge the bank whilst travelling at speed seems quite good. Be interesting to see the true figures of what the drives produced and what the average house loads are. Even when generating 322w how come he had to turn everything off?

Looks like a Outremer 45 comes standard with 560w of solar. JC hasn't mentioned solar, perhaps not fitted, but I would have thought 1kw wouldn't be too difficult to fit to a 45ft cat. After all what was his plan when at anchor or in the doldrums to run the house loads.

Yihang · 12-12-2020, 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7

Ah, now that is slightly different to the way I first read it, on board consumption plus 1/2kw an hour to charge the bank whilst travelling at speed seems quite good. Be interesting to see the true figures of what the drives produced and what the average house loads are. Even when generating 322w how come he had to turn everything off?

Looks like a Outremer 45 comes standard with 560w of solar. JC hasn't mentioned solar, perhaps not fitted, but I would have thought 1kw wouldn't be too difficult to fit to a 45ft cat. After all what was his plan when at anchor or in the doldrums to run the house loads.

He had 1300w. Bulk of it on the davits in the back.

He plugged in at all the ports which kinda defeats the purpose but i guess its stupid not to.

danstanford · 12-12-2020, 04:11

I have an Oceanvolt J/88 and in everyday use absolutely love the solution. Quiet and powerful, the electric engine powers me off the dock and anywhere I go all year long. When I had to take a long trip last year with an iffy forecast I put a Honda generator on deck and charged while I powered and sailed when I could with not a care in the world. 70 mile trip with the last 25 miles under power and into a 20-25 knot headwind and I arrived with 70% battery power left.
Perfect for cruising, no. A great compromise for everyday use, absolutely.
It escapes me why people want to denigrate a hybrid solution when most of the time it runs electric and does not pollute. The future will hold better batteries and likely some better form of on-board generation and both can be added to my boat as they become viable. In the mean time I will zoom along under the batteries pleased as hell!
Dan

**Dockhead** · 12-12-2020, 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by FP51

. . . Finally torque equals acceleration and horse power is speed. Speed is NOT a factor for displacement hulls so the increase in torque for electric over diesel means you need a smaller primary mover. . . .

This is false.

Horsepower is the ability to do work. Torque is meaningless on a boat.

Horsepower is horsepower. To move a given boat at x knots in y conditions you need z horsepower. Horsepower, not torque. It makes no difference whether the horsepower are electric or diesel produced.

**Dockhead** · 12-12-2020, 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by danstanford

. . . It escapes me why people want to denigrate a hybrid solution when most of the time it runs electric and does not pollute. The future will hold better batteries and likely some better form of on-board generation and both can be added to my boat as they become viable. In the mean time I will zoom along under the batteries pleased as hell!

It's great that you're getting good results from your system. Your use case is a good example of one where electric really makes sense -- you can usually plug in every night. I would have electric too, for that use case.

But hybrid drive is not a good solution if you are generating all your own power on board. It's inefficient compared to direct drive, not to mention heavy and costly. Because your primary energy storage medium is still diesel fuel, and you have all the same gear (deleting only the gearbox), just you've added a generator and electric motor. Generator plus electric motor are a lot heavier and more costly than a gearbox.

With hybrid drive, you can shave peaks off power demand by adding battery power to generated power. So your diesel engine might be somewhat smaller. That's an advantage of hybrid drive, but still doesn't eliminate the advantages of direct drive in weight, cost, and efficiency.