Electric propulsion in the future

[Rumrace]

I’m on 3G for the day. This topic excites me but pop up data vampire adds keep kicking me off the thread.
I have a 4 1/2 year old Tesla S. It’s boring never breaks
The Rand Picnic was in my view the first practical water Tesla. Was a go fund me!
Beneteau Delhi claim 100% electric 2024

[Rumrace]

Hydrogen wow
In the 70’s DR. Horvatt drove a Cadillac from California to the Toronto car show on water.
He used a radium rube barbers used to grow hair with less radium than a smoke detector to separate the two gases from water on demand.
As a car bike nut I can tell you Honda has promoted new developments which were actually expired patents.
Japan is serious every single motor company are working together.
The 5.0 L Yamaha Toyota is a doll anodized blue motor. Zero emission
Yanmar Toyota 30’ was flying around the Olympic using a hydrogen fuel cell.
Horvatt’s science will come in little boxes to produce hydrogen using the Tesla water generator with electricity as an extra benefit.
Japan is committed to zero emissions by 2050 globally. Since Canada got free trade with Canada Toyota doubled their factory to produce 3 Electrics pick up, SUV, and Cami. The partnership with Tesla is just great.
Audi range has almost caught up to Tesla.
I picture future sailboats with two retractable props running on electric motors with lithium cells being charged by solar wind current and hydrogen gens.
In 1937 the VP of Ontario Hydro said we produce so much Hydro at Niagara Falls we should produce and store hydrogen as fuel. He was fired apparently.

[Rumrace]

Hydrogen!
Dr Horvatt drove a Cadillac from California to the Toronto Car show in the 70’s on water.
Horvatt used a radium tube to separate the gases on demand His invention was banned as we could not add radium ( less than a smoke detector ) to a crash.
So ends Hydrogen ... for a bit

[Rumrace]

Ontario has a lot of old silver mines. The by product piles of the junk is lithium.
Windsor is building a huge lithium battery factory to service 6 electric car brands being built in the province New York and Michigan.
I have a very old 4 stroke Yamaha on my Dingy. It runs perfect and so well built I can see my grandson restoring years from now, it but I bet he can’t get gas for it
I already have a 20amp lipo in the Dinghy for fun really. Great lighting
I don’t like the Merc labelled plug in battery unit but a step to a better trolling motor. When they convert the V12 to Hydrogen I’ll be impressed.
I’d rebuild any motor not cast iron to keep in going until hydrogen or electric replaces it.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

... In 1937 the VP of Ontario Hydro said we produce so much Hydro at Niagara Falls we should produce and store hydrogen as fuel. He was fired apparently.

Sources?

A century-long foundation of groundbreaking innovation in water electrolysis and other hydrogen technologies that extends through four generations of the Stuart family.
Alexander T. Stuart [1882 - 1950] ➥ https://hydrogenoptimized.com/history/

[Rumrace]

I’m sorry it’s just from memory. Haven’t had a chance to pull up a reference.
You’re reference on the other hand is brilliant and I’m sure the influencers.
I’m going to re read it later.
I was thinking a Tesla straw would make a better oil cooling expansion tank or ballcock for sinks.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

... I was thinking a Tesla straw would make a better oil cooling expansion tank or ballcock for sinks.

The Tesla straw [valvular conduit] is a one-way valve, that uses a particular shape.
When the gas/fluid flows in one direction, it changes direction slightly, in a zigzag way, but is relatively unrestricted, and does not find much resistance.
However, when it flows in the other direction, because of the design, the gas/fluid gets spilt into two. These flows then end up meeting almost head on. This causes some resistance. This is repeated numerous times, each time reducing in pressure/flow.
This type of valve is never going to work as a seal for your sink, or wine bottle, it simply does not work that well, at low pressures.

However, when high pressures are used [especially high pressure pulsed flows], it comes into its own, and the ratio between two directional flows gets higher and higher.

[Rumrace]

You are awesome
Well I printed one and I’m installing it on the kitchen sink which spends most it’s time above the water line, when my wife is not looking.
How do you think the Tesla valve would assist the Accumulator on your water system?
Or a great place for expanding oil from transmissions to cool in?

[Shaneesprit]

Are they burning all of that coal in order to produce the solar panels? ��
Germany had to switch its coal back on because snow blocked out the sunlight to the solar panels. Long story short but In effect that’s what happened.
Finally a couple of weeks ago, I managed to get enough solar to provide some hot water after months of waiting for the sun to arrive and drive the solar output above 50% of installed capacity (at my dads house) less than 50% unlikely to be any excess solar to heat the water.
The issue is simple to solve with 1 new construction rule.
All new buildings (house / Garage / supermarket/ warehouse ) to have a fully installed solar roof = end of problem.

[Rumrace]

I was in a plant tour of a solar panel factory in Flint Michigan. They had huge rolls of stainless steel sheet going down hill on a air conveyor into several gas chambers then up hill through a series of gas chambers where another roll of connective web was added then sealed in a laminate as they were cut to size. The point of the downhill uphill process was to create tension on the stainless without rippling the edge.
The actual amount of energy used was a fraction of what growing and slicing crystals. They broke ground on ultraviolet photovoltaics. I believe they were the first company to make a flexible panel. Uni-Solar was their trade name. You could take out a section with a shotgun and it would continue to produce energy just less. This put them in the top suppliers for the space station. Monitors to heat up panels to melt snow. I’ve seen a 12V Golden Rod attached to the back of a panel to melt ice or snow. Even a raspberry pi noticing an input drop and turning on a heater in a wintering boat.

[GoodShipLolipop]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

Hydrogen!
Dr Horvatt drove a Cadillac from California to the Toronto Car show in the 70’s on water.
Horvatt used a radium tube to separate the gases on demand His invention was banned as we could not add radium ( less than a smoke detector ) to a crash.
So ends Hydrogen ... for a bit

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

There is no radium in smoke detectors, hasn't been since the 60s. Horvath claimed his car runs on "muon catalyzed fusion", not radium. And Horvath's car has NEVER been demonstrated to work, it's actually a pretty well known scam, and is even a major source of embarrassment for Queenslanders (he was based out of Australia, not the US). The one time they claimed they were going to demonstrate it they conveniently "lost" the key so nobody could see it working or look at the engine. Somebody who worked on the fake demo revealed that there was a hidden gas cylinder they'd intended to run the car on, but it had begun to leak so they had to "lose" the key for safety reasons. Nobody banned his car, it was just a scam. Disagree? Show me the law, or any evidence of what you've said.

In general, it's literally impossible to convert water to hydrogen, and then convert that hydrogen back to water and get net positive energy out. The energy you get out of converting the hydrogen to water is exactly equal to the minimum energy required to convert water to hydrogen. This is trivial to demonstrate, any violation of this principle would simultaneously disprove a huge chunk of physics and be the single greatest discovery in the history of humanity by providing limitless free energy.

And if the answer to why the "water powered car" folks still haven't provided a demo or working prototype after decades and decades of swearing they have working prototypes is "conspiracy", then those conspirators really dropped the ball on electric cars, didn't they? I mean, the existence of Tesla as a corporation seems to pretty soundly debunk the idea that some shadowy cabal is working behind the scenes to thwart any and all alternative power sources for cars, right?

The only explanation that makes any sense whatsoever is that when these people say "I've disproved all of physics to make my car run on water!", they're either wrong or lying. In the case of Horvath, he was 100% lying.

[Rumrace]

Toyota/Yanmar and Yamaha disagree
Their engines and big cat are pretty impressive . I’d love to hear your impression on the V8. It’s Yamaha first dedicated hydrogen engine. Toyota intends to put it in a car. Toyota already installed an I-6 Yanmar in a 30’ boat. It’s a sweet little hardtop. I don’t understand you can count hydrogen out on past failures but I don’t have your scope of the science.
I have to dig through some antique papers but I think I have horvatts papers from 1976.

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

Toyota/Yanmar and Yamaha disagree
Their engines and big cat are pretty impressive . I’d love to hear your impression on the V8. It’s Yamaha first dedicated hydrogen engine. Toyota intends to put it in a car. Toyota already installed an I-6 Yanmar in a 30’ boat. It’s a sweet little hardtop. I don’t understand you can count hydrogen out on past failures but I don’t have your scope of the science.
I have to dig through some antique papers but I think I have horvatts papers from 1976.

Hydrogen is the only way to de carbonise the heavy lifting - efficiency wise is a major negative, as you need huge excess carbon free electricity to make it viable and right now we don’t have 1% of what’s required to de carbon Hydrogen.
No energy will ever be carbon neutral- that’s a myth.

[GordMay]

Yanmar Conducts World’s First 70 MPa High-Pressure Ship Refueling with Hydrogen

Yanmar Power Technology (YPT), a Group company of Yanmar Holdings Co., Ltd., has conducted the world's first 70 MPa high-pressure hydrogen refueling of a ship using a demonstration test boat equipped with a hydrogen fuel cell system. The test boat cruised on a route around the island of the Osaka-Kansai World Exposition 2025 and famous tourist spots on the city's coast.

The 70 MPa high-pressure hydrogen refueling was carried out in cooperation with Toyota Tsusho Corporation, using a specially licensed high-pressure facility and a newly developed prototype long hydrogen refueling hose. The 70MPa high-pressure refueling resulted in more than three times longer cruising time compared to the previous refueling process. The results will be utilized for the market deployment of hydrogen fuel cell systems as well as the study of hydrogen refueling infrastructure for ships.

YPT is developing a 300kW-class maritime fuel cell system incorporating fuel cell modules supplied by Toyota Motor Corporation, addressing the potential customer demands such as ones relating to the Carbon-Neutral Port concept of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism. Yanmar aims to obtain a type approval from classification societies so that the system can be installed in various types of ships with global customers towards a planned launch to market in 2023.

More [/w links] ➥ https://www.yanmar.com/eu/news/2021/10/20/98865.html

And ➥ https://www.yanmar.com/global/news/2.../24/89229.html

[GoodShipLolipop]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

Toyota/Yanmar and Yamaha disagree
Their engines and big cat are pretty impressive . I’d love to hear your impression on the V8. It’s Yamaha first dedicated hydrogen engine. Toyota intends to put it in a car. Toyota already installed an I-6 Yanmar in a 30’ boat. It’s a sweet little hardtop. I don’t understand you can count hydrogen out on past failures but I don’t have your scope of the science.
I have to dig through some antique papers but I think I have horvatts papers from 1976.

Those engines do not convert water to hydrogen and then burn the hydrogen to produce water and energy. They consume hydrogen directly, the hydrogen must be produced elsewhere and then supplied to the car. This works fine, no violations of basic physics required. Though I doubt that widespread use of hydrogen powered cars will ever be a thing, which I explained at length in an earlier post in this thread. In short, hydrogen is up against some hard physical limits on the storage front and needs incomprehensibly huge investments in infrastructure on top of being less efficient than batteries and more polluting than coal (seriously, look up blue vs green hydrogen), while batteries get denser and denser every year. So the success of BEVs has rendered hydrogen vehicles a moot point.

As far as an engine that operates by converting water to hydrogen and then burning that hydrogen, this is completely impossible. Not hard, not "maybe once we get better technology", not "some genius will prove us wrong one day". Impossible, absolutely 100% impossible, no wiggle room at all. It's a violation of the law of conservation of energy.

To see why this is the case, let's do a proof by counterexample. Let's say somebody says they've built an engine that can convert water into hydrogen, and then convert that hydrogen back into water to produce net energy. Now let's say I take that device, and I connect its exhaust (water) into its input. Now this device is running in a closed loop, consumes no fuel, yet continues to produce energy at its full production capacity.

In other words, we are creating energy from nothing, a clear violation of the law of conservation of energy. If this thing actually worked, we wouldn't be putting them in cars, we'd be using them to power the entire planet with the infinite free energy they'd be capable of producing. And if the guy saying he created such a device didn't point that out too, then either the genius scientist/engineer didn't connect the most obvious dots ever, or he realized "I can make your car more efficient" is a lot more believable than "I can power everything in the world for free, forever", and picked the former for their scam. But to be clear, there are plenty of people claiming the latter, too. And every one of those scams looks exactly like Horvath's magic car. In fact, that's what Horvath is doing these days. If you look at the company website (no, I'm not going to link to it), they claim their magic widget will revolutionize everything. So why hasn't it yet?


Because it's a scam.


Being excited about technology is great. I get excited about it too, and I'm not trying to be condescending or mean or anything. But when it comes to outright scams like Horvath and his magic fusion box, I just have to tell it like it is. Horvath was a simple fraud that managed to build an entire business around the supposedly continuing development of something he swore was already working 50 years ago but has yet to demonstrate even a single time.

When the investors who throw money at obvious scams like this get asked why they did it, they usually respond with "But what if it's not a scam?" The idea being if one in a hundred of these obvious scams turns out to be not a scam, then they own a piece of the "next big thing", so all the money they threw away on scams doesn't matter. And so the cycle continues. Scammers continue to claim they've built devices which violate simple laws of physics, investors keep throwing money at them "just in case", and the scammers keep pointing to those investments as if they were proof of anything other than incredible greed.