Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

[mdsilvers]

I just saw this thread. Antares Catamarans just announced last week a Parallel Hybrid using the Hybrid Marine setup with Yanmar 40hp engines.

The link provides for more information. There is a lot of details on the design, and 'why' this solution was chosen. Overall, the Parallel hybrid is more efficient than other hybrid designs, most importantly provides redundancy when extra propulsion is needed.

[mdsilvers]

Originally Posted by phillysailor

I'm still interested in the Beta hybrid option, for the following purpose: a 38-40' motorsailer with five 200W solar panels. Lithium battery bank.

Goal is for

1: energy independence utilizing the generator function of the electric motor powered by the diesel supplemented by solar power
2: improved efficiency of the diesel engine at low and modest speeds by adding generator loads
3. motorsailing using the electric motor to quietly improve sailing performance
4. Quiet docking and mooring maneuvers
5. Elimination of a stand alone genset
6. Redundancy of propulsion through a single shaft

My thought is that this application takes advantages of the hybrid's advantages, without underestimating its limitations.

I would add to your list. Hydro Regeneration is another benefit of a Parallel hybrid. If you use the curves, at 7kts avg of sailing speed (easier to obtain on a catamaran in most conditions), you generate 640watts/hr (both props). That's 15kW for a 24hr passage. This is an advantage for those boats that are sailing around the world (like I am) vs. staying in one place. We've put 45,000 miles on our boat. I wish I had Watt & Sea or similar much sooner!!

[ghochgraf]

I sail with an electric drive, 34' sloop. In my experience with this boat and it's configuration, I would look forward to a hybrid system, where an electric motor will get you in and around a marina at modest speed, plus quietly adding to sailing performance upwind. Then a diesel will be called upon for higher speeds and/or longer runs plus recharge. Speaking of recharge, relying on one source is foolhardy. You need a combination of solar, wind, regen, tow gen, fossil fuel generator, and patience.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'll agree with Roryboy.


Advantages here are only quiet while doing range-limited motorsailing, and redundant propulsion.


There will be no gain of efficiency; probably efficiency will be worse.


You can eliminate the generator (a laudable goal) with big and well regulated and well-driven alternators. Or Integral, if you want to go first class.

Agree, you can eliminate the genny with a regulated big alternator (eg 300A on a 50hp engine, typical 20min anker Manoveur under engine and you put 100Ah= 0.5-1 day power consumption into your house) and combine it with 1-3kw of bifacial solar panels and you are set.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You can eliminate the generator (a laudable goal) with big and well regulated and well-driven alternators. Or Integral, if you want to go first class.

In this case does it also not make sense to then consider the Hybrid Marine / Beta Marine solution in a similar fashion? To eliminate a Separate Generator and provide High Power Battery Charging capability?

But as a bonus with the Hybrid Marine / Beta Marine solution, on top of the High Power Battery Charging capability you also get:

- Hydro Regeneration capability (when needed or wanted)
AND
- Electric Propulsion capability (when needed or wanted)

Also via the various combinations quite a lot of built in backup / breakdown / alternative capability is provided too. That's gives options for long distance cruising where things can and do go wrong.

(and even more so if you get one of the larger models with two Electric Motors/Generators on each diesel - 70hp and above engine / 20kW of
Electric Propulsion / 15kW of Battery Charging capability).

I guess the question is how much extra the cost is to get these 'bonus' features in comparison to how useful they will be and/or how much they would cost to add separately.

Antares Catamarans list the Hybrid package as a USD87,600 factory option on their Antares 44 GT model (which lists at USD1,095,000).

In simple terms that includes 2 x 40 HP Hybrid Marine Yanmar Parallel Hybrid System with 1 x 10kW Motor/6kW Generator on each engine, plus 40 kW Victron Lithium Batteries, and 1800W Solar.

(the standard boat comes with 14kW of Victron Lithium Batteries, so another 26kW is part of that $87,600 upgrade option - Inverters are the same of both boats, 2 X Victron MultiPlus 3000-watt power inverter and battery charger, and Solar is a bit less at 1200W)

https://www.antarescatamarans.com/bu...res-44-hybrid/
https://www.antarescatamarans.com/an...ybrid-details/

Certainly many people these days look at adding separate Hydro Regen (such as Watt & Sea) to compliment their Solar installations on ocean crossings but baulk at the cost vs output which isn't very good value.

NB: Antares suggest that the power curves for the Hybrid Marine system they are using (1 x 10kW Motor/6kW Generator on each engine) is very similar to the Watt & Sea 600 hydro generators.

And certainly many people these days on the lighter, faster, better sailing boats would like to have (at least some) electric propulsion capability for normal every day use (because they really don't need to motor very far or very often in a lot of cases), but also still baulk at the cost, etc, of a full electric setup, as well as the overall range anxiety question for specific situations when they do need to motor long distances (particular regions, seasons, time constraints, etc).

(this remains a valid question for most 'normal' long distance cruising boats that don't fall into any extreme category, eg: the fully electric Gunboat 60 'Moonwave')

Plus even those fully electric extreme boats still need a Separate Generator anyway, as a backup, for extended motoring, and for extended periods at anchor with not much sun - it can all happen and needs to be accounted for.

And of course many people are already installing significant Lithium Battery packs anyway too, even if it's just to compliment their Solar installation and minimise any diesel engine running for charging.

Some calculations should be done by adding up all those Features separately, and maybe a Separate Generator too, and then making a comparison to the Hybrid package price. Weight should also be considered.

I do however agree that a Variable Pitch Propeller would help make the most of this type of setup.

I also agree that in general the whole concept works better on a catamaran.

The Hybrid Marine / Beta Marine solution seems like a good way to get all of these features in one overall package that ticks a lot of the boxes without very many (any?) of the negative points of the other possible solutions.

Obviously it may not make financial sense to repower an existing working diesel setup with such a Hybrid package, but for a new build, or substantial refit where the diesels need rebuilding/replacing, it seems like a very valid option.

But I'm happy for others to point out any points that I might be missing?

[jmh2002]

I notice that Integral has an 'estimator' on their site here: https://integrelsolutions.com/estimator/

Using the same Antares example in my previous post it doesn't take much to get up to around USD50,000 trying to estimate a similar Integral setup.

That's the Integral System, Batteries, Installation, Inverters/Chargers, etc, but it's difficult to really compare to what I quoted above as Integral doesn't specify exactly what is included, eg: how many kW of batteries, what size Inverters, etc.

But I don't think it's 40kW of battery capacity like is quoted from Antares.

In theory the Integral system can provide more Battery Charging capability than than the Hybrid Marine system specified on the Antares - Integral says 'up to 9kW' (vs 6kw on the Antares).

However it's not clear from Integral on what size engine they are specifying the 9kW - I don't think that is on a 40hp engine, so probably Battery Charging capability will be similar on comparable sized engines.

(I see an 80hp engine used in some Integral tests, so that would bump the Hybrid Marine solution up to their twin Electric Motor/Generator package with 15kW of Battery Charging capability)

It seems likely that a 'comparable' Integral system would be close to the Hybrid Marine system in cost but ultimately still a little bit cheaper.

But of course an Integral System doesn't provide any Hydro Regen capability, nor any Electric Propulsion capability either.

Looking at it in that way, the Hybrid Marine System may well be extremely good value but it would be good to see some proper quotes comparing like for like with all the same equipment.

[jmh2002]

Although I agree that in general the whole concept works better on a catamaran (twin installation, lighter boat, more easily driven, more solar, etc, etc), there is one MAJOR benefit to a Hybrid Marine parallel system on a monohull.

Monohulls usually only have one engine and if it stops working the boat is left with no propulsion AT ALL. And we know that does in fact happen, it's not particularly rare on monohull sailing boats.

With a Hybrid Marine parallel system some propulsion would still be available as the Electric Motor directly drives the propeller shaft and neither the diesel or the gearbox is required for this to work.

In the case of a diesel propulsion engine breakdown on an ocean passage, the Regen would still work (and the boat's Solar too), continuing to charge the batteries as well as allowing for some more electric propulsion at some point too.

Could be a good setup for a monohull too.




PS: that's also a negative point when comparing the Integral or Big Alternator setup on a boat without a Separate Generator (and a monohull especially, with less Solar capability) - if you have a propulsion engine breakdown on an ocean passage you also lose your principle source of charging

The Hybrid Marine parallel system really gets a lot of things right if you want multiple solutions to multiple problems.

[JustMurph]

So, pick this idea apart for me. My idea for the ideal setup in a catamaran is the following. Let's take my Mumby for example, that has a pair of 30HP diesels. In one hull, have a 50-60HP hybrid diesel (10kw electric) and in the other hull have just a 10kW electric + the battery bank.

You still have the range/power/duration of a big diesel should you need it (fighting off a lee shore, motoring when becalmed etc. You have the simplicity of only one diesel to maintain. You can use the electrics for day to day manoeuvring. You can regenerate from both electrics when sailing. You can change batteries at a high rate using the diesel. Weight will be similar, or not too much more than two smaller diesels.

Are there any downsides to this, other than it people getting the heebiegeebies because it's asymmetric?!

[mcarthur]

It's a good idea (we're thinking of it too ), but you can go simpler. Stock standard diesel in one hull with large alternator, electric motor and batteries in the other to even out weight. If 48v, then the alternator, batteries and motor can go ok to 10kW with only 200a for motor cabling. On our diesel, we can can 6kW off the PTO, so diesel motoring also charges the batteries (and of course add lots of solar for a cat). Just make sure the gearbox on the diesel can freewheel so when using electric you're not dragging a stationary prop on the other hull. We're estimating on saving nearly 1000 kg including taking out the genset. Do it together at Hope Island if we can get moving north towards the end of the year...

[JustMurph]

That's also a super sensible option!
What design is your cat?

[Q Xopa]

I think it's a great idea. I know many will have plenty to pop poo it.

I could say that you are giving up your Cat twin diesel redundancy. But I know you know this.

Being a little wary of potential diesel engine problems, I have come up the following additions on my single engine.

The bulk of engine issues are diesel fuel related. So I have a day tank and twin Racors.
Next most common issues are cooling and raw water related. I have installed- a raw water sensor alarm, a fresh water rinse circuit.

I am doing the same with my 49' mono.
I can say it's been a fair bit of messing around, machining and fabrication etc, so far and I'm still going. So you need to be up for that.

So far I have got the Elec motor mount plate, toothed belt reduction prop shaft gear mounted, a prop disconnect, set up.

So the regular driveline is all ready to use as a normal diesel. I have a Yanmar 4JH4-TE 75HP.

I haven't got the Elec motor, or Batts etc yet. I'm still tossing around options with that stuff but I have a fair idea which ones I will probably go with.

But I'm in no hurry with this stuff and I can just work it out in my own time. I have done the harder bits I reckon.

I'm happy to get you more details of what I'm doing if you want.

Good luck.

[Q Xopa]

My reasons for going down this path are not the same as a lot out there.

Redundancy, that's one of my main goals with a setup like this. If the diesel stops, I still can go a little way with the Electric, maybe get myself out of trouble.

However the main goal in my mind is it's a nice Generator set up. I can charge up my batteries quick, at anchor with the prop not spinning. I also have bad couple of big school bus alternators.

Another thought occurred to me with your proposed setup talking about being asymmetric. Not that its necessarily an issue but you'd probably want different props. On the Hybrid side you could potentially have a lot of extra power diesel plus electric.

[CaptainRivet]

Well a standard diesel does not run efficiently as a gen. Like you want to do it you have a) uneven distribution of the weight, far back in the cat screwing up your balance. 2nd a diesel and a e engine have different power distribution curves=both engines won't run in sync and manoveuring will get much harder. The best solution is a gen big enough to support 2 e engines and each hull and electic engine. A genset will run in the opitmum range using much less fuel then your 50-60hp diesel, you can mount it more centered, getting a lot weight out of the ends.
You are having very light 3 cylinder engines 20 or 30hp, an electric motor+batteries+10hp gen weight about the same but you can distribute the weight much better, more in the center. If you calculate weight savings assume your battery bank is too small. Was talking to several providers. was in the process of buying a 36ft FP Mahe with damaged engines and was calculating all the options. (sale fell through at the end, cat had grounding damage before and not properly repaired)
Hybrid makes a lot sense if the boat is bigger like 47-50ft plus and you need 50-90hp engines because then you can combine a light 3cylihder 30hp with an electric engine as this will sav weight plus electric propulsion. And on this size you have enough room to stick 5kw of solar.
Small means till approx 40-42ft all recommended 2 e-engines and one genset plus as much solar as you can fit. The small 30hp 3 cylinders are very light and efficient nowadays, replacing them with e is an even weight exercise if done properly. Like this you just maintain 1 genny.
Well i went the opposite way, got a Lavezzi that normally has 2x20hp and mine has 2x50hp and replaced the lead banks with LI. No weight gain as the additional 90kg where balanced by moving the banks more centered and swap to Li. Cat does 14kn on WOT both engines and motorsailing 1 engine 1200rpm=1l per hour adds 2-3kn of speed plus runs very quiete. A no brainer to use the engine in this combination. Normal cruise motoring with 1 engine at 1600rpm doing 8kn and using 3l/h. My Lavezzi is light, only 8.5t and small hulls. Yes i am a sailboat and i sail whenever it makes sense, have 90sqm of sail with 8.5t and 40ft length so she sails well in even light winds but in real life you still use the engine surprisingly quite a lot.
E is ok for costal sailing but for bluewater crusing its not eficent enough and only possible if you stack in double the money then in diesel propulsion.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

My reasons for going down this path are not the same as a lot out there.

Redundancy, that's one of my main goals with a setup like this. If the diesel stops, I still can go a little way with the Electric, maybe get myself out of trouble.

However the main goal in my mind is it's a nice Generator set up. I can charge up my batteries quick, at anchor with the prop not spinning. I also have bad couple of big school bus alternators.

Another thought occurred to me with your proposed setup talking about being asymmetric. Not that its necessarily an issue but you'd probably want different props. On the Hybrid side you could potentially have a lot of extra power diesel plus electric.

School bus alternators are not made for deliverying high current outputs, a school bus simply has not much power needs.
What you need is high duty truck alternators used for cooling trucks... To keep the huge trailor at freezing temps need a lot energy which the alternators must deliver
But you will figure that your big diesel engine used for propulsion has very bad fuel efficiency and your engine cloggs up from carbon deposits from always running on low rpms on anker for charging the batteries. Bad solution.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

School bus alternators are not made for deliverying high current outputs, a school bus simply has not much power needs.

What you need is high duty truck alternators used for cooling trucks... To keep the huge trailor at freezing temps need a lot energy which the alternators must deliver

But you will figure that your big diesel engine used for propulsion has very bad fuel efficiency and your engine cloggs up from carbon deposits from always running on low rpms on anker for charging the batteries. Bad solution.

I didnt think I'd have to wait long to get corrected.

I agree with most of what you are saying.

When I said a 'school bus' alternator. I was not being very specific. They are actually 28si's large case 24v @ 110A. They are advertised for a variety of applications including school buses, trucks, earth moving equip, emergency vehicles etc.

Yes they are not so high output, but enough for my needs. But IMO simple and good value at around $200 new.

Yes you are correct about using the efficiency of using the Engine as a generator.

I also see many purpose made generators run inefficiently, at their one highish speed to get the required frequency under very light loads for often long periods. This is not an efficient way to operate. At least with our engine when demand is lower we can run at slower RPMs.

I guess it's a call on what we consider 'the lesser of 2 weavils'.