With lithium do we actually need a dedicated starter battery?

[LargeMarge]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

...actually...actually...actually...exactly...actu ally...1000%...?

.
Possibly.

[Fore and Aft]

Just read this article today and it reinforces what I generally see when doing surveys.
Cheers

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Just read this article today and it reinforces what I generally see when doing surveys.
Cheers

I bet the writer mentions ah not watts 75 watts is is only 5ah didn't know they made lead that small other than power wheels. And 2230 watts lfp is 185ah not much for a big vessel.
But answered the question quite well all had some type of lead chemistry as w starting bank

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

It is a good idea to have one 6 cell LTO battery pack to start your engine, bow thruster, e-winch(es) and windlass from one LTO bank. Those equipments above do not work togeather smiltuanously but all of them require high starting currents which a 6 cell LTO battery can deliver to any of them when needed. You do not have to deal with extra two or three battery groups and their infrastructure. Their CCA is very high 10C and short term max peak current discharge rate is 20C. I think using them as service batteries is not significant in moderate climates but it is possible for boats to use them as service batteries also where they sail in very cold climates.

Excellent, can we see some photos of your LTO bank please? You do use LTO don't you?

Pete

[OneBoatman]

Considered literature seems to contradict what Solar Support offers about shifting LTO batteries or either LiPO4 or even an AGM for starting. Consider that similar rated LTO batteries cost approx 2x what a LIPO4 battery which today still cost approx. double that of an AGM battery. Two other negs are that recent literature states is that the LTOs typically have a 17-20% higher self-discharge rate than the LiPO4 and as we know, they are also considerably heavier. So, like the many other choices we make, everyone can choose what they want, what they think they need, and what they are willing to pay as they commission their boats for how they may use them. Must you have regular and routine deep discharge and recovery, can your existing system support the re-charge capacity needed to make us of their design benefit? Do you really need the highest possible cycle life and maximum cold weather performance, etc. So many I've talked to go the route of buying an installing extra A-hr capacity as to run all of their creature comforts, and then find they don't have the re-charge capacity to bring them back. You must first answer, do you have in place what it takes for your system to work in harmony in order to enjoy the benefit you expect from choosing one over the next?

[s/v Jedi]

You can’t compare start batteries with house batteries because the requirements are totally different.

For start batteries you need very high power output but only limited energy capacity. This eliminates batteries with MOSFET based BMS’s so that’s 99.9% of LFP.

The thin plate Odyssey batteries I recommend are totally designed to start engines and have a 5kA power rating for short circuit. This is why I use them, but LTO is the chemistry that may even do better. It does so well that I agree the storage capacity can be reduced significantly.

If I would have more time, I would certainly test these. I actually have an A-B switch on the start bank with only one Odyssey at A so could easily add a LTO to test.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

For start batteries you need very high power output but only limited energy capacity.

Pretty much.
In terms of watt-hours one "D" size dry cell out of your flashlight stores way more power than needed to start the typical 30>40Hp 4-cylinder diesel.
The quick inrush of starter current requires high plate area to provide that demand without excessive voltage drop.
That's why "starter" batts have a lot of thin plates as opposed to a deep cycle house batt which has fewer but thicker plates.
The thick plates store a lot of energy, but don't supply as much instantaneous release of their stored energy.
With plate area, it's kind of the same but different with vacuum tube amplifiers.
A sudden attack on an electric bass of a low frequency note requires a huge but instant current demand.
Savvy musicians knew that tubes with greater plate area could "keep up" without sag, more area=quicker response, (and higher fidelity).

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Excellent, can we see some photos of your LTO bank please? You do use LTO don't you?

Pete

No. As one of the moderators of the lithium power systems discussion group, do you think people should implement all the ideas they consider? This is not possible. It is opened to discuss these and many similar thoughts and to find the best solutions for energy storage needs. If you have any ideas, share them, why are you waiting?

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

No. As one of the moderators of the lithium power systems discussion group, do you think people should implement all the ideas they consider? This is not possible. It is opened to discuss these and many similar thoughts and to find the best solutions for energy storage needs. If you have any ideas, share them, why are you waiting?

But somehow we need a middle ground, sure not all ideas need to be self implemented but also the problem we have at the moment is that there is too many ideas and opinions from people who are parroting what others have said previously. This clogs up the forum and makes it hard to tell what is a real good idea and what is a parroted opinion.

I generally give input on my own experiences that I have actually implemented. An example of this is that I start my engine from Eve280 cells and I am able to comment on this topic from actual experience. Threads from the past say that these cells will not last as they are not designed for this, yet 1 year on it works fine. The reason that it works fine and the reason that there were so many negative comments is that
1 - the negative comments were made by forum members that had never done this.
2- they also did not understand inrush current from a 6l diesel starter even though they think they do.

It’s ok when these members comment just occasionally but when they make themselves out as some sort of expert and then comment on nearly everything that the worth of the forum gets compromised.

So where is the guy that made some LTO batteries and implemented them for starting.? That’s right… nowhere to be found.

If you really want to have an easy solution and are concerned about starting from your house bank with no backup, then perhaps a used maxwell supercap supported by your lithium house bank is a better solution.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by Fuss

It’s ok when these members comment just occasionally but when they make themselves out as some sort of expert and then comment on nearly everything that the worth of the forum gets compromised.

So where is the guy that made some LTO batteries and implemented them for starting.? That’s right… nowhere to be found.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ng-282301.html

There is an application here. Fortunately, CF is one of those who follow the discussions. I'm sure many more people are using LTO batteries as starter batteries. I mentioned that there is no point in using it as a service battery in temperate climates. In climatic conditions near a region that does not exceed 0 °C in summer and winter, you will have no alternative other than using LTO batteries.

You should also count C. Rivet, the most well-known actor in LTO battery applications. LTO Batteries were mentioned so much that I wanted to research them in depth. Do I need to be an expert to do this? No, I didn't claim to be one. However, I have seen many people who claim to be experts on electricity but are reluctant to offer their opinions. There are many business reasons for this, it is not difficult to understand.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

No. As one of the moderators of the lithium power systems discussion group,

What on earth does being a moderator have to do with asking users about their LTO experiences?

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

do you think people should implement all the ideas they consider? This is not possible.

It is entirely possible and what forums are all about, exchanging experiences. Though I agree with your comment to Fuss about people replying endlessly about which they have little experience. One way is to ask about their installations and do they have photos. So yes, if someone comments strongly or repeatedly about LTO it would be nice to see the evidence to back up what they say. Are you going to implement an LTO starting system in the near future?

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

It is opened to discuss these and many similar thoughts and to find the best solutions for energy storage needs. If you have any ideas, share them, why are you waiting?

I like to keep an open eye on new ideas, but ripping out a perfectly good AGM start system and installing LTO as a science project does not appear to be a good idea to me at the moment. Also locating good LTO's in the UK difficult if you want to avoid the duff second hand kit. I did look but wasn't impressed. Perhaps GWL might be a better option if they supply to the UK. Where are you thinking of buying your LTOs?

However, there are other areas that I have contributed to based on experience. For example using LFP on a smaller yacht for electric cooking. I do try to give a balanced answer of what worked, what didn't and any compromises needed.

Pete

[Fuss]

Very true Pete7,
And to give an example of what I mean… look at this thread, 10,000 views 150+ comments!! There is nearly no useful information in here, just vague references.

Do you realise “solar support” that each of these contributors could have had 1 solar panel less if they did not have to wade through the drivel in these types of threads.. something for you to think about when doing future solar size estimates…BTW , what is an actor…I don’t understand this and most of your last post!

Ok, so now onto an example of someone giving meaningful information on LTO and they have 1500 views and 4 contributors! Yet the key points that he shows are completely lost and overlooked by this 10000 view post.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-273522.html

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

PETE, You are one of those who want to see to believe. Yes, you can live with this school. Of course, it is necessary to see in order to develop, but to implement some ideas, some people do not need more than what is technically explained. Technical projects form the basis of practical application. Some creativity is required. Anyone can eat the food put in front of them. Some people cook their own food and eat it.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Thank you Fussss for this feedback. Here's another LTO application you might have missed.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-273522.html

BjarneK did a great job. I would like to congratulate him. I hope he's following this thread. If you have an existing AGM engine battery, use it. I'm talking about higher performance and longer life, a 40Ah capacity that maintains its functionality in all climatic conditions and is capable of running the diesel engine, windlass, bow thruster, e-winches alone.

Originally Posted by Fuss

Very true Pete7,
And to give an example of what I mean… look at this thread, 10,000 views 150+ comments!! There is nearly no useful information in here, just vague references.

Do you realise “solar support” that each of these contributors could have had 1 solar panel less if they did not have to wade through the drivel in these types of threads.. something for you to think about when doing future solar size estimates…BTW , what is an actor…I don’t understand this and most of your last post!

Ok, so now onto an example of someone giving meaningful information on LTO and they have 1500 views and 4 contributors! Yet the key points that he shows are completely lost and overlooked by this 10000 view post.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-273522.html

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

PETE, You are one of those who want to see to believe...... Anyone can eat the food put in front of them. Some people cook their own food and eat it.

The defence rests its case M'Lord