Low priced LiFePO4 Batteries vs High priced

[rphdiego]

Starting some time next year, atleast in the USA, lifepo4 batteries installed on boats will have to meet a certain ABYC standard. Most likely, insurance companies will require the batteries to meet this standard if you want to have insurance on your boat.

[vpbarkley]

Go to this channel on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse

He disassembles all the 'cheap' lithium batteries and compares them. He actually knows what he's doing.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by JBP

What were the actual costs? An Ampere Time 100Ah battery is $400 dollars, a Battle Born 100Ah is $900. How much would it cost to build your own 100Ah battery (not all of us need 1,000 Ah).

100ah bank no idea but 250ah DIY bank was just over $600 for calb cells a 200 amp Daly bms and a smart battery monitor with 300 amp shunt.
So diy is definitely cheaper way.to go not to mention you gain knowledge of the system .

[robertwcass]

I bought two Ampertime Plus 200ah LiFePO4 batteries for my 1987 C&C 35 MK3 and put them in parallel for 400ah at 12v that are charged by 735 watts of solar. They cost $750 each. After 6 months I am extremely happy with these. I believe buying expensive batteries is kinda of silly since the prices are constantly coming down as the technology is constantly improving. I could have paid thousands more for “brand name” batteries but I’m happy with what I have. I would have liked to have had the Bluetooth enabled models but, as I said, they have worked unreal up to this point. They are under warranty for years to come.

One must remember that going to lithium requires a systems approach with regard to wiring, fusing, charging etc. With the cheaper cells I was able to use Victron charge controllers and DC/DC charges to help monitor the system and maximize the use of sunlight and engine running time.

I’m very happy with my system so far. Hope this helps.

[robertwcass]

Originally Posted by rphdiego

Starting some time next year, atleast in the USA, lifepo4 batteries installed on boats will have to meet a certain ABYC standard. Most likely, insurance companies will require the batteries to meet this standard if you want to have insurance on your boat.

Could you guide us to your source for this info. I would like to read what those requirements/standards will be so as to prepare.

Thanks

[LeighC]

Originally Posted by davil

===============
off topic

If you can't parallel a cheap LFP drop in battery when you need to, what good are they to you?
If you can't series a cheap LFP drop in battery when you need to, what good are they to you also?

[PaulCrawhorn]

Originally Posted by rphdiego

Starting some time next year, atleast in the USA, lifepo4 batteries installed on boats will have to meet a certain ABYC standard. Most likely, insurance companies will require the batteries to meet this standard if you want to have insurance on your boat.

ABYC have NEVER been "required".

Just an issue of surveyors and insurance.

Sometimes common sense prevails

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by robertwcass

Could you guide us to your source for this info. I would like to read what those requirements/standards will be so as to prepare.

Thanks

ABYC T-13 (previously TE-13)
The document has been posted on this forum before. Note that it isn't becoming mandatory, or law. However, many insurance companies already require adherence to ABYC standards. Nothing changes in that regard next year, it applies now.

Likely, no cheap drop-in battery complies with ABYC T-13. Of the very expensive drop-ins, only a select few do. The main issue is "prior warning" below. I'm not clear if simply having a Bluetooth app qualifies, as it isn't likely that app will be running 24/7. To really be sure of meeting the standard, the bms would be connected to a light or a buzzer to warn BEFORE the bms protection activated. This is pretty easily achieved with non-drop-in build.

13.9.4.1 Means of protection should not disconnect critical loads without prior warning and should not stop the charging source in a manner that causes damage to the charging device.

[4arch]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Likely, no cheap drop-in battery complies with ABYC T-13. Of the very expensive drop-ins, only a select few do. The main issue is "prior warning" below. I'm not clear if simply having a Bluetooth app qualifies, as it isn't likely that app will be running 24/7. To really be sure of meeting the standard, the bms would be connected to a light or a buzzer to warn BEFORE the bms protection activated. This is pretty easily achieved with non-drop-in build.

I agree, though for the person looking to use cheap drop-in batteries while continuing to maintain insurance coverage, the question really becomes how much insurers will fixate on the prior warning issue and whether it's worth taking the gamble on installing a system that doesn't meet the standard before insurers have established a consistent position. It seems so far that the insurers who are concerned about LFP installations are taking a much blunter approach, denying or reducing coverage for any LFP installations or for those not professionally installed.

[blazing928]

Don’t forget insurance.

This year Pantanius added very specific insurance requirements for installation of lithium batteries, certificates for instal and the accreditation certificates from the installer, so no self installs will get insurance, unless its checked by a accredited installer perhaps.

I personally wouldn’t buy cheap batteries for a boat, as you cant get off and buy a new set in the ocean….

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by blazing928

Don’t forget insurance.

This year Pantanius added very specific insurance requirements for installation of lithium batteries, certificates for instal and the accreditation certificates from the installer, so no self installs will get insurance, unless its checked by a accredited installer perhaps.

I personally wouldn’t buy cheap batteries for a boat, as you cant get off and buy a new set in the ocean….

Pants must be losing a lot of business
Seems they don't cover much..

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by Phil_Fr17

@JBP, interesting... It may be possible for Jweyndling, depending on his technical or DIY level, to dismantle the envelope and add thin sheet heating, much like in yogurt makers.
An idea like that by the way. I don't know if he lives in a cold or hot country.

You can buy under pad heaters, they are used in DIY electric vehicle builds in very cold countries.
The question has to be asked, Winston LYP cells can be charged and discharged at -45*C, does it really get that cold in a boat?

T1 Terry

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

You can buy under pad heaters, they are used in DIY electric vehicle builds in very cold countries.
The question has to be asked, Winston LYP cells can be charged and discharged at -45*C, does it really get that cold in a boat?

T1 Terry

In all honesty on our vessels when would we need to charge our banks with the ambient temperature in the battery compartment is below 32°F ?
On my boat here are the numbers in deep winter outside cold is 10°F to 15°F water a foot down is 40°F My cabin is 65°F and the heat ducting runs through the compartment the bank is in so no colder than 50°F. Now why add heating to keep bank warm ?
BTW my and most good solar controllers have a setting to stop charging at 32°F.
When vessel is on the hard in winter just charge to 80% and disconnect the negative cable from the bank . If drop ins then just shut off everything .

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Wire size used in build. No one would ever (I hope) use 10AWG wire to connect a battery rated at 100A to their boat systems. But many cheap drop-ins use undersized wire as small as 10AWG internally.

Yes, many of the cheaper drop-in's do use 10 AWG internally. 10 AWG 105C wire is rated for 60 amps ampacity. Many of these batteries BMS's allow only 50 amps continuous charge or draw which is within this rating, just. That means you end up with a battery that can be out performed by a quality AGM battery. Usually at a much higher price.

I would never install a cheap drop in battery on a boat. There are a few very good ones - Lithionics for one. Note though it is very expensive.

My thought is that these less expensive batteries will end up giving Lithium batteries a bad name over time.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Yes, many of the cheaper drop-in's do use 10 AWG internally. 10 AWG 105C wire is rated for 60 amps ampacity. Many of these batteries BMS's allow only 50 amps continuous charge or draw which is within this rating, just. That means you end up with a battery that can be out performed by a quality AGM battery. Usually at a much higher price.

I would never install a cheap drop in battery on a boat. There are a few very good ones - Lithionics for one. Note though it is very expensive.

My thought is that these less expensive batteries will end up giving Lithium batteries a bad name over time.

Max current of a battery is only one factor of "performance." You can get about 3x the usable capacity in the same space/weight as an AGM, an expected life of upto 15-20 years, and almost no peukert effect. I would never say an AGM outperforms a Lithium, even a cheap Lithium.

I would never install a cheap drop-in in my boat, but for many boats I think a cheap drop-in is fine. Most boats are only used for day sailing or on weekends. A cheaper drop-in would (IMHO) be fine for that.

Technical writers who have no technical understanding of Lithium batteries are giving Lithium a bad name, along with mainstream media reporting on how dangerous Lithium is. I don't think cheap drop-ins will contribute to this. Truth is, I know people that installed cheap drop-ins against my advice. They are all happy and have had no problems, are now telling me "told you so." I still don't recommend them, but they certainly aren't making a bad name for Lithium.