E-13 -- cells that comply

[sailingharry]

So, I'm reading the E-13. I had been focusing on controls (BMS, etc), but this time the requirements for the cells caught my eye. Individual cells must meet one or more standards (UL, etc). I've been wandering a few vendor sites, and at least right away, I can't find any that do. But much of that has to do with the sites not being forthcoming -- they may indeed have it but not show it.


Has anyone purchased LFP cells that meet the certification requirement? What brands, from who? I'm thinking that virtually all cells are direct import with no certification (Try and find a smart switch to operate with Alexa that has UL certification on it....).


I've attached the relevant wording from E-13

[wholybee]

You can search from www.ul.com
I just checked and my Calb cells are certified.

https://productiq.ulprospector.com/e...rm=calb&page=1

Edit: EVE seems to be as well.

[tanglewood]

Any decent cell will meet UL. I think it’s 1643 or something like that. It’s in E-13.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by wholybee

You can search from www.ul.com
I just checked and my Calb cells are certified.

https://productiq.ulprospector.com/e...rm=calb&page=1

Edit: EVE seems to be as well.

I've taken a look at the ULProsepector site, and signed up for a free account. Lots of information. But, unfortunately, it adds more doubt than solutions.


I looked up several prospective mainstream cells. All the manufacturers are listed, with many model numbers -- but none of the ones I'm looking at.


This could mean that the actual UL listed models are unrelated to the "Marketing model," or it could mean that the commercial cells are listed and the cells we can buy retail are not listed.


Here are some sample cells.
CALB CA-280 and CA-230
CATL (Contemporary Amperex Technology) CATL-280 and CATL-302

EVE LF280K and LF304
Gotion LFP-150 and LFP-340


That's 8 cells I've looked for, all from mainstream manufacturers. Has anyone actually seen a UL Listing for the cell models they have? We often hear about insurance companies being ultra-focused on LFP banks, has any insurance company (or surveryor, or ABYC electrician "approving" the bank) ever asked to see the UL certification?


Am I making a mountain out of a molehill? I do that.....

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Any decent cell will meet UL. I think it’s 1643 or something like that. It’s in E-13.

I think 1973 is the important standard. Drop, crush, internal and external fire exposure, etc.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

That's 8 cells I've looked for, all from mainstream manufacturers. Has anyone actually seen a UL Listing for the cell models they have? We often hear about insurance companies being ultra-focused on LFP banks, has any insurance company (or surveryor, or ABYC electrician "approving" the bank) ever asked to see the UL certification?


Am I making a mountain out of a molehill? I do that.....

Yes, our insurance required it and it had to be a US manufacturer and a US ABYC installer.

The battery itself had to meet the UL standard not just the cells.

Lithionics, Kilovault, at least one SOK are example of batteries that have UL 1973 cert.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by crayiii

I think 1973 is the important standard. Drop, crush, internal and external fire exposure, etc.

Negative. 1973 is a system level standard, NOT a cell standard. 1642 is the cell standard, and I think all the cells mentioned above meet it. I have personally used CALB 180 and EVE 280 and both are UL 1642. There are also equivalent ISO standard that are just as good.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Negative. 1973 is a system level standard, NOT a cell standard. 1642 is the cell standard, and I think all the cells mentioned above meet it. I have personally used CALB 180 and EVE 280 and both are UL 1642. There are also equivalent ISO standard that are just as good.

Where did I say anything about 1973 being a cell standard?

Your homemade battery wouldn’t meet UL 1973 and that’s the standard insurance companies are starting to ask for. [emoji2371]

Luckily my UL 1973 certified battery is composed of cells that meet the 1642 standard. [emoji23]

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Negative. 1973 is a system level standard, NOT a cell standard. 1642 is the cell standard, and I think all the cells mentioned above meet it. I have personally used CALB 180 and EVE 280 and both are UL 1642. There are also equivalent ISO standard that are just as good.

From your experience, it would seem that the lack of certification is more accurately described as a lack of easily determined certification on their web pages. I think I will leave that issue aside until final choice of batteries is made, and then just confirm with the supplier.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by crayiii

Your homemade battery wouldn’t meet UL 1973 and that’s the standard insurance companies are starting to ask for. [emoji2371][emoji23]

Am I to understand that your insurance company does not accept ABYC E-13 compliance as sufficient? They are looking for a higher standard than that? Are there any other parts of E-13 that they are also rejecting?

E-13 makes it very clear that UL 1642 is acceptable (and so for an assembled battery rather than a drop in battery, 1973 is not necessary). In fact, they make it very clear that UL listing is not required at all, and several IEC standards are also acceptable.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Am I to understand that your insurance company does not accept ABYC E-13 compliance as sufficient? They are looking for a higher standard than that? Are there any other parts of E-13 that they are also rejecting?

E-13 makes it very clear that UL 1642 is acceptable (and so for an assembled battery rather than a drop in battery, 1973 is not necessary). In fact, they make it very clear that UL listing is not required at all, and several IEC standards are also acceptable.

My insurance requires the battery be a US manufacturer and installed by a US installer. My underwriter told me that they are looking at the UL1973 standard for future policies and that’s why we chose to buy batteries that meet that standard.

You really need to remember that battery manufacturers had a lot of influence on E-13. It is pretty weak.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by crayiii

Luckily my UL 1973 certified battery is composed of cells that meet the 1642 standard. [emoji23]

Curious who made your battery. Very few drop in batteries can be used in an ABYC compliant installation, as most have very little communication outside the battery. Kilovault for instance is incapable of giving an advanced alarm before disconnect.

I believe Victron batteries might, but since I am not interested in a prepackaged solution, I haven't investigated.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Curious who made your battery. Very few drop in batteries can be used in an ABYC compliant installation, as most have very little communication outside the battery. Kilovault for instance is incapable of giving an advanced alarm before disconnect.

I believe Victron batteries might, but since I am not interested in a prepackaged solution, I haven't investigated.

From the standard:

NOTES:

1. An alternative power source is recommended for critical systems (e.g., engine starting, propulsion, navigation lights, etc.) that may be affected if a BMS shuts down the battery. The alternative power source
can be another lithium ion battery.

2. If a shutdown condition is approaching, a battery system should notify the operator with a visual and/or
audible alarm before disconnecting the battery from the DC system.

3. BMS(s) may suddenly and unexpectedly disconnect a battery from loads and charging sources.

The “notes” are recommendations and are not the same as the requirements contained in the main body of the standard.

Additionally, “a battery system should” sounds like something like a Victron Battery Protect or other monitoring system outside of the battery itself could meet this recommendation.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Curious who made your battery. Very few drop in batteries can be used in an ABYC compliant installation, as most have very little communication outside the battery. .

not a requirement

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by crayiii

From the standard:

NOTES:

1. An alternative power source is recommended for critical systems (e.g., engine starting, propulsion, navigation lights, etc.) that may be affected if a BMS shuts down the battery. The alternative power source
can be another lithium ion battery.

2. If a shutdown condition is approaching, a battery system should notify the operator with a visual and/or
audible alarm before disconnecting the battery from the DC system.

Additionally, “a battery system should” sounds like something like a Victron Battery Protect or other monitoring system outside of the battery itself could meet this recommendation.

THANK YOU! And Sailorboy, too.


You read, and ponder, and read, and then sleep, and then read... and some of it starts to fade away. This is a HUGE revelation. There are two driving forces in my design -- one is to make a system I am happy with, the other is to ensure that what makes me happy also makes the insurance company happy. Hence my question about meeting UL or IEC standards for my cells -- now that there is a E-13, I want to be 100% sure that I fully comply with the standard. My insurance company (BoatUS) not only doesn't mention LFP in the policy, but they periodically publish stories on thoughts and considerations for an LFP installation -- and if they prohibit LFP on their insured boats, that would be an odd conflict!



High on my list of BMS to use is the Electrodacus. The problem is that while I believe that the pre-disconnect low voltage alarm is critical (if I'm aboard, I want to be both notified and have time to take action -- if I'm not aboard, then, well, whatever....) and I can implement it with the features and controls provided by Electrodacus. The pre HIGH voltage alarm is a problem. I can't implement it on the Electrodacus, due to software limitations. The Electrodacus at under $200 meets all my other requirements, I have to get to BMS in the $600-$800 range to get a pre-HV (or pre HT and LT) alarm. I don't actually CARE about the HV alarm, because I will forcibly open all charging sources at 100%, and a HV disconnect is by design impossible. Your point on the "notes" makes the fact that I'm not getting an alarm a "note" and not a "violation."


As far as the BP, it doesn't know (except maybe in a 100% Victron system) about impending disconnects from cell imbalance. You could have one cell critically low (and about to trigger a shutdown) while still meeting pack voltage limits.