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Old 20-07-2021, 16:30   #31
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

I have a swing mooring in Shute Harbour that I have not had my boat swinging off it for over 6 years now. Been insured with Pantaenius for many years, even before they had an office in Australia and there was no problem being on a swing mooring. My mooring neighbor has had his Compass 28 there since the 1980's and it has survived everything nature has thrown at it so far. Cyclonic activity aside, Shute Harbour is one of safest anchorages anywhere as it is protected on all sides. Pioneer Bay around the corner is not so lucky because it is exposed to the north and every time a storm with a decent northerly rolls through, it will usually throw a bunch boats up on the shore. In comparison, Shute Harbour's protection meant it was full of dilapidated - and most likely uninsured - junkers many with absentee owners parked there for years and these mostly comprised the annual list of those sinking and grounding ashore. Of course a couple of cyclones rolling in directly over the top also helped clear these out, along with some decent and probably insured boats, too.

But times are changing. Pantaenius will no longer insure on a mooring in the exact same locations mentioned by the OP. Or unattended anchoring. Or single handed night time sailing. Or named storms if not in a marina. or damage caused by fail mooring lines. They also impose heavy excesses if damaged by a named stored when in a marina, or a hit by lightning and other things. Trying to negotiate gets nowhere.

Basically these policies are evolving into junk policies that are worthless aside from a being a ticket to get into marinas and boat yards.
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Old 20-07-2021, 18:27   #32
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Thanks cwjohm and Reefmagnet for your experiences and Ann for your insight!

To respond to Ann's thoughtful response -

Topsail, and it appears Pantaenius now, are restricted to a policy or policies that the underwriters, Lloyds of London agree to.

I wonder if they would consider modifying some of their excluded places.... or how they apply exclusions to experienced cruisers, with proven records of responsibility.

Therefore, there does not appear to be flexibility in the offered policy. An alternative policy, such as New Wave Marine, may alleviate some of the exclusions, but does not offer offshore coverage.

New Wave Marine is underwritten by Berkshire Hathaway Speciality Insurance Company, not the "good old boys" in London.

For instance, Twofold Bay is often a necessary stop, due to weather pattern changes that cruisers need to wait to pass. With due diligence, Twofold Bay is fine. The "marina" planned for there is merely a glint in the developers' eyes.

Moorings fail everywhere, from time to time, and gear chafes through. Proper mooring maintenance is a real issue, and maybe if someone goes ashore due to a failure of the mooring, then it's who services the mooring that the ins. co. will retrieve the money from.

Seems moorings are now limited to 24 hours of unattended use by the London underwriters. Any recent renewal experience otherwise?

As mentioned, marinas such as the one at Cairns send people away to the mangrove creeks for shelter. And honestly, in extreme weather, a marina is not necessarily the best place to be.

Do they cover you on the hardstand?

Not during "cyclone season", however they define that.

Do they exclude coverage for named storms?

And what about out of season tropical storms, named or not?

Coverage may be offered outside "cyclone season" or south of the latitude as the insurers define.

However, the insurer may stipulate additional conditions for coverage such as -

During the period 16/05 to 14/10 cover includes claims arising from a

(Cyclone) subject to:
1) The Vessel at time of loss being moored in a marina berth, pen or secure jetty.
2) Cyclone Excess a-c)
3) Cyclone Preparation

If your vessel is in an area South of 25 degrees South the following will apply: Claims arising out of a Cyclone are included at any time subject to:
1) The Vessel at time of loss being moored in a marina berth, pen or secure jetty.
2) Cyclone Excess a-c)
3) Cyclone Preparation

Cyclone Excess
a) The excess will be increased to 25% of the total claim or double the standard excess as set out in the policy, whichever
the greater. This will be subject to a minimum excess of A$10,000
b) The Excess Waiver cover (if applicable) shall not apply.
c) Marina Benefits as per Section 8 of the policy wording is deleted.

Cyclone Preparation
In addition you must make every effort to ensure that Your Vessel is prepared for a cyclone. In the event of a claim, We will require documented evidence detailing the following:
- Additional ropes.
- Additional fendering.
- Removal of sails, protective covers and biminis.
- The clearing of loose deck items.
- Any other preventative measures as may be executed to ensure the safety of the craft.

Definitions:
Cyclone:
A named or numbered tropical storm, hurricane, cyclone or typhoon, which has been given a name or number by the Australian Bureau of Meteorology. Australia's official weather forecasts & weather radar - Bureau of Meteorology or any Meteorological Service.

Marina:
A secure and enclosed sheltered mooring complex, providing controlled access to berths or pontoons. The marina must have a physical breakwater which is not floating or temporary.


Note, it is possible to set up marinas so that they withstand most cyclones--witness 3 marinas in Noumea. If you want a transient berth for an expected cyclones, the marina insists on how you do it. You must be insured; you must have new docklines of x diameter, you have to have a diver hook your stern onto the chains that are laid down for the purpose, etc.,etc. The point is that they do have facilities for a large charter fleet and numerous yachts, although some of them tough it out in the anchorages.

**************

Nice response from Topsail. Good on them.

Ann
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My sense is that Lloyds of London have made similar changes to policies of late.

The Product Disclosure Statements may not reflect what is listed in the Offers. Read both carefully!

Renewal Offers may be more flexible than new policies.

My experience is mostly with Topsail.

Pantaenius do things differently, breaking the world into zones. Including "Australia south" and "Australia north". I am yet to see their quote.

And, how and when any insurer pays remains the big issue.

In the end, we are ultimately responsible. Ann's "due diligence".


Jeff.
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Old 20-07-2021, 19:30   #33
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

I dont think I would like to be in a Marina in a Cyclone,
After most cyclones pass thru,

Marina's have boats stacked up on one side in a big smashed up heap,

Up a tree lined mangrove creek or river with a few bends to stop the Tidal surge would be the safest place to be,

My insurance covers me 200 Nmiles off shore,
But not Blue Water to another country, ??????????

Cheers, Brian,
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Old 22-07-2021, 06:27   #34
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zmtndoc View Post

Topsail, and it appears Pantaenius now, are restricted to a policy or policies that the underwriters, Lloyds of London agree to.

I wonder if they would consider modifying some of their excluded places.... or how they apply exclusions to experienced cruisers, with proven records of responsibility.
In my latest renewal with my insurance company there was an exclusion regarding sailing above the 26th parallel, which was badly worded. So I queried this when I also disclosed a Round Australia trip later this year. After answering a number of questions about the trip and my experience they then agreed to replace this exclusion with a blanket A$5,000 excess when we are north of the 26th parallel, plus a requirement to be below the 26th parallel by a certain date. So yes you can negotiate some of the exclusions with insurance companies.

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Old 23-07-2021, 13:32   #35
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilenart View Post
In my latest renewal with my insurance company there was an exclusion regarding sailing above the 26th parallel, which was badly worded. So I queried this when I also disclosed a Round Australia trip later this year. After answering a number of questions about the trip and my experience they then agreed to replace this exclusion with a blanket A$5,000 excess when we are north of the 26th parallel, plus a requirement to be below the 26th parallel by a certain date. So yes you can negotiate some of the exclusions with insurance companies.

Ilenart
IMO the insurance companies are not the problem, The problem is too many people have insurance to cover their own carelessness.
If 90% had 3rd party only and took the loss of our own boat on the chin there would be less argument about fault a much better lower cost industry to deal with. Also a lot fewer careless owners out there to cause damage to us. Better anchoring techniques, better maintenance, better fendering, berthing in better wind conditions etc.
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Old 23-07-2021, 14:32   #36
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
My daughter was for a while an independent claims adjuster, and she explained to me that the job of the insurance company is to make money for the stockholders, period.
Ann



This is the job of every single company in the world. Do you really need this explained to you?? Did you think the coffee shop were serving people because they LOOOOVVVEE people and the smell of coffee??


This doesn't mean they never pay out.
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Old 23-07-2021, 16:45   #37
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Try New Wave Marine they can get you Redsky insurance. Better cover no exclusions and no worries all for similar premium. We left Pant$#@# because they had more exclusions than cover
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Old 23-07-2021, 19:27   #38
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobweb View Post
Try New Wave Marine they can get you Redsky insurance. Better cover no exclusions and no worries all for similar premium. We left Pant$#@# because they had more exclusions than cover
What is Redsky insurance, ?????
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Old 23-07-2021, 23:07   #39
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

The problem with the swing moorings started after cyclone Yasi devastated the FNQ coast, since then most of the companies exclude swing moorings. They like the boats to be in marinas, even if most of the marinas have contingency plans requiring the boats to evacuate the marina in case of a cyclone (I have stayed a couple of years in the Cairns marina and had to move my boat into the creeks for each cyclone....).

We probably all agree that staying on a swing mooring when a cat V storm comes by is not a good idea and to some extent, I understand the insurance companies. I think making that a general rule is not OK and does not comply with boating reality up here.



Regards,



-Richard
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Old 24-07-2021, 16:45   #40
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Cairns isn't the only port that makes boats leave for cyclones. Bundaberg (Burnett R.) does, too, to protect the remaining moorings. Used to be a marina in town, that would sink their docks, to preserve them during cyclone-related flooding.

Zmtndoc might want to question what the policy of the insurance company is when the marina you entered to comply with the insurance boots you [and everyone else] out. Imho, they need an "inclusion" to cover this eventuality, where your non-compliance when forced out will allow you to remain insured.

(....Or, remain well south of where all this is happening, which is probably what they want.)

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Old 24-07-2021, 16:56   #41
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Now a days I can only budget for boats that I can afford to lose , therefore consider high premiums with so many outs pretty pointless .
The problem I have found is when land based infrastructure providers , yacht clubs and marinas require third party coverage or no service .
It is hard to find just third party alone .
There is very little chance to cruise and chose not to pay exorbitant fees that are basically worthless .
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Old 24-07-2021, 22:13   #42
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Pantaenius have kindly provided details and quotes.

In some cases the Conditions and Endorsements in the quotes differ from the PDS (Product Disclosure Statement).

And, any quote may vary dependent on experience, etc..

Some notable clauses -

Anchor Warranty - Any damage resulting from the boat breaking free and dragging whilst unattended at anchor between dusk and dawn - overnight, or when unattended when there is a current weather warning in place with the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, (BOM), or a similar advisory and warning centre being a member of the World Meteorological Organization (WMO Severe Weather Information Centre), is excluded from cover under this policy.

The vessel is moored in a marina berth/at a jetty. (ie. no swing moorings or anchorages as identified locations)

New for Old with deduction - There will be a deduction due to the age of the part repaired or replaced in case of Partial Loss claims.

In the event of Partial loss, the following deductions will be made from the claim settlement in respect of parts or materials where the part which is repaired or replaced was - at the time of the incident, more than:

2 years old – 30% deduction

10 years old – an amount proportional to the reasonable consumed service life of the part taking into account the age and condition of the part.

The deduction will not be applied to labour costs, or to the repair of the basic
Hull and deck structures of the Vessel.

Salvage & Wreck Removal Warranty - Any claim against this policy for Salvage or Wreck Removal shall require the client to pay a one off deductible of $20,000 AUD, this overrides clause "5. Deductibles" in the PDS.


Limited cover is provided for loss or damage caused by lightning. Insurer‘s liability under this Insurance for Partial Loss caused by lightning is limited to 15% of the Agreed Fixed Value for each occurrence or event.


Pantaenius does not exclude named ports such as Pioneer Bay (QLD), Shute Harbour (QLD), Mangles Bay (WA) or Two Fold Bay (NSW) for failures of swing moorings or anchors (as Topsail does).

Pantaenius divides the marine world into zones (see attached).

Given that - they can provide flexibility. (Topsail has covered us for offshore cruising in the past and states they can again.)

For example, if insurance is calculated for Australia North AUSN there is scope for being north during the "cyclone season" under their "Named Tropical Storm" clause. However -

Loss or damage caused by Named Tropical Storms to parts of the Vessel that are capable of removal and safe storage but have not been removed and safely stored (including but not limited to booms, spars, sails, awnings, biminis or other covers or shades, Tenders, Water Sports Equipment, Personal Effects and Fishing Gear) is excluded from this policy.

If the vessel is at sea as per a), the removal and safe storage is only required where appropriate.

Loss or damage caused by Named Tropical Storms is excluded from this policy, unless the Vessel is
a) at sea (not anchored, moored or aground),
b) stored ashore in a one-piece or approved cradle (except in the case of multihulls) with the cradle and Vessel securely lashed together and secured with ground anchoring arrangements, or the hull sunk in the ground. If the masts are removed, they are stored separately and safely. If the masts remain stepped they are secured by all possible means (using halyards, additional lines etc.) to the ground,
c) secured in a marina berth with additional ropes as can appropriately be used,
d) complies with a cyclone plan that has been pre-approved in writing by Pantaenius.


And, deductibles become larger.

Pantaenius limits coverage in AUSS and AUSN zones to 200nm (vs 250nm from mainland Australia and Tasmania, excluding Papua New Guinea for Topsail).

Pantaenius have quoted 7.5% more though the coverage is somewhat different (as above).

Yes, New Wave Insurance seems a reasonable alternative if sailing within Australian waters. But, read the PDS!

For instance, an exclusion -

the cost of repairing or replacing Damaged item(s) due to Mechanical or Electrical Breakdown or electronic failures unless caused by any of the following:
3.4.1 fire, explosion or lightning;
3.4.2 collision with another boat or external object other than water;
3.4.3 a malicious act by persons other than You or a Family member;
3.4.4 Burglary and/or Theft.


And, New Wave don't cover offshore.

Yes, JPA Cate, Topsail had no comment on being ordered out of a marina by an authority in case of a named storm.

Redsky underwrite Topsail and probably others -

RedSky Insurance Pty Ltd on behalf of certain underwriters at Lloyd’s (UMR:SDF200002)

There are other insurers but most won't cover offshore and those that did were considerably more expensive than Topsail and Pantaenius.

And, currently insurers for Australians need to be located in Australia.

Phew!

Who knows where we will be sailing into next year!!??


Jeff.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Pantaenius Cruising Areas Map.pdf (380.1 KB, 17 views)
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Old 25-07-2021, 13:53   #43
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Perhaps a reversion to the original concept where a body of ship owners get together in a coffee shop and agree to assume a portion of each others risk when undertaking marine ventures.

Anyone know if there's a Lloyds Coffee House at a handy location in Australia?
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Old 25-07-2021, 15:23   #44
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Topsail no longer are insurers, they are brokers! My renewal was more than twice last years premium. They are trying to insure me with New Wave. I told them to jam it. I already have a quote for less than half the price!
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Old 25-07-2021, 17:28   #45
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Re: Insurance exclusion of Australian ports

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
Perhaps a reversion to the original concept where a body of ship owners get together in a coffee shop and agree to assume a portion of each others risk when undertaking marine ventures.

Anyone know if there's a Lloyds Coffee House at a handy location in Australia?
You can't have your coffee and drink it too!


Actually you make a good point, insurance originally worked because while the risks were high, the potential rewards of a successful marine venture for spices etc were huge. If the risk:reward ratio was high enough and shared, all profited to some extent.

What is missing in today's model is the rewards side of the equation is missing. The risks for some ports/locations are increasing but there is no reward that can be shared for being there. If you want to risk to be covered by others, you have to pay them to take it but you ain't getting a huge monetary reward for visiting the risky locations.
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