Are you responsible for removing your boat from land from a hurricane?

[Shrew]

'Act of God' doesn't absolve you from liability. It is a BS term used by insurance to deny claims.

You're property is trespassing on someone else's property. 'God' is not coming by to fix it. As a boat owner, you are ultimately responsible. If you decide to walk away, you forfeit the value of the property as compensation for it's removal. That, in itself, should clearly indicate who is responsible.

[passthetuna]

Sorta like the deadbeat banks we bailed out ? Then they paid themselves bonuses. Pointing fingers at the riffraff. How dare they be poor.

[hellosailor]

"It will eventually happen that SOME state will decide they have had enough, and require salvage insurance coverage, the the rest will follow very quickly."

There must be a lot of terribly underpaid, overworked, undereducated publicly elected officials who simply have no imagination.

So I promise that if I'm elected in November, I'll pass a simple new law:
"The owner of any motor vehicle or vessel titled in this state, who shall abandon that vehicle or fail to remove that vehicle after abandonment or other unauthorized placement of that vehicle on private or public property, shall be charged with felony trespass and held liable for seizure of the vehicle and any and all other assets which may be sold at public auction, or to scrapyards by open auction bid, and have a lien placed upon future earnings and assets to cover the full cost of removal and disposal, plus fines and penalties beginning at $5000 for the first offense and doubling for each additional offense, plus interest on the balance until the entire amount is paid in full. Furthermore, that person shall be treated as a felon, with the indefinite suspension of their driver's license and any other professional licenses in this state, along with their right to vote."

See? You can knock out a solution in ten minutes, argue about the nitpicking over a couple of beers, and make it Real Damn Scary to abandon old boats. And cars.

No need to require insurance, just stick a few heads on pikes and the other villagers all get the message, one way or the other.

And if you want to suggest that someone else propose, sponsor, and pass similar legislation instead of voting for me? That's OK too. I still get a 10% agent's fee on all the proceeds.

[stnick]

The boat owner ! Its still your boat reregistered to you !

[Captain Bill]

This is an interesting question. While in the water boats are covered by admiralty law, which has well documented procedures and responsibilities regarding wrecks and salvage. Does admiralty law apply to a boat sitting in a farmers field or someone's front yard? I went through Hurricane Fran in the middle 90's and it was made abundantly clear that civil laws don't work the same way. For instance, if your neighbors tree fell on your house, your neighbor was not liable for anything. You had to remove the tree and repair your house at your expense or your insurance company's expense, up to your property line. Also you or your agent cannot trespass on your neighbors land to retrieve your property without their permission. So which laws apply to a boat located on dry land. My guess is that admiralty law does not apply to a wreck located on someone's private property. Also my father in law had a house washed away in a flash flood caused by a hurricane in the NC mountains. Major parts were found jammed up against a bridge several miles downstream. He was never charged for cleaning it up as it was just another part of the "disaster" cleanup.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

So I promise that if I'm elected in November, I'll pass a simple new law:
"The owner of any motor vehicle or vessel titled in this state, who shall abandon that vehicle or fail to remove that vehicle after abandonment or other unauthorized placement of that vehicle on private or public property, shall be charged with felony trespass and held liable for seizure of the vehicle and any and all other assets which may be sold at public auction, or to scrapyards by open auction bid, and have a lien placed upon future earnings and assets to cover the full cost of removal and disposal, plus fines and penalties beginning at $5000 for the first offense and doubling for each additional offense, plus interest on the balance until the entire amount is paid in full. Furthermore, that person shall be treated as a felon, with the indefinite suspension of their driver's license and any other professional licenses in this state, along with their right to vote."

As a boater with little mean's and being retired, living only on Social Security, without a car or home to seaze, your proposal lacks teeth. My Boat which is my home is exempt from seizure in California, as it's not worth much. If it somehow got washed ashore I would have no money to remove it. I have no assets that can be seized and I don't need a driver's license. I no longer need my professional license either.

That is the problem with your proposal. Many of the boats that get washed ashore are owned by folks with little means. In the legal profession they're called judgment-proof. Doesn't mean you can't get a judgement on them, but collecting on that judgment is nearly impossible.

What really happens in hurricanes is that FEMA will Pay Salvage companies to remove boats. Just as FEMA will pay homeowners money to help restore their their homes. Even though the homeowners has insurance it may not be enough to cover cost of repairs. That's where FEMA comes in.

By the way I do have liability insurance. It has fuel spill coverage but no Salvage coverage.

Want to send those deadbeats to prison, that will only cost you $80,000 a year. Per person. Does not make economical sense compared to a $10,000 Salvage cost.

[Boatguy30]

After Irma, Monroe county assumed all responsibility for disposing of hundreds of boats. They were probably happy to get rid of all the derelicts and no doubt used federal borrowed funds to pay the contractors.

[hellosailor]

sailorchick-
"As a boater with little mean's and being retired, living only on Social Security, without a car or home to seaze, your proposal lacks teeth."

I don't say it will work 100%, but it certainly is a fast step to correct the current situation, and for the majority of boat owners--who do have SOME assets--it will motivate them. A number of states have similar laws wrt child support payments. You don't pay? You say you're broke? You still lose your licenses (drivers and professional) and then once you are barred from your profession and perhaps arrested for unlicensed driving...all of a sudden you find ways to pay the bills. Not always--but more often than not, and that's progress.

As you your situation and being judgment proof....that's something actually not relevant to the boat trash problem. I think Heinlein said that you can quickly judge any civilization by how it treats the young, the old, the infirm, those who cannot for whatever reason take care of themselves. That's a bigger issue to tackle.

As is the issue of what prisons cost, and whether to send people to prison. As that Arizona sheriff proved, you can stick felons in tents with no cable TV and only bologna sandwiches, and damn, they're not going to be happy about it. But I didn't say prison time. Felonies don't have to mean prison time, they can mean a fine, community service, six months living in a trailer on the job site while you help pick up the boat trash during the day...Just takes a little imagination.

The Florida counties that just (eventually) rolled up their sleezes and said "We've got an obligation to the general public to clean up the streets, and we're gonna have a taxpayer revolt if we don't pretty it up and get the tourists back REAL FAST." Deal with the immediate problem, pass the hat for funding later. I have to applaud them for that--even if it really means "Don't tell the rubes, we're gonna have to use tax money on this, and they're all gonna have to pay for it."

Piling up debris (which a lot of places, including Florida have done) and then saying "Yeah, that's an ugly mess. Nothing we can do about it." just means "we" need to be run out of office on a split rail. A sadly forgotten Yankee tradition! That, and the Norse sentencing of outlawry. No need to skin the cat--you can still motivate it.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by passthetuna

Sorta like the deadbeat banks we bailed out ? Then they paid themselves bonuses. Pointing fingers at the riffraff. How dare they be poor.

This is irrelevant political nonsense.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by RobinScurr

Or, a salvage company could remove without your permission and you are then legally obligated to pay them for the salvage... they have the right under maritime law to recover their fee.

Does "maritime law" cover a boat which is actually on land (as opposed to washed up on a shore) ? If so, how far inland?

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

As you your situation and being judgment proof....that's something actually not relevant to the boat trash problem.

Oh sorry, I know several people who lost their boats last year from hurricanes in Florida who were just like me. That is their boat was their only major asset, no car, on Social Security excetera. They had no money to remove it so they sign it over to FEMA.

You are correct as far as that goes with boats In Marina that end up on land. But for the lowly anchor out your proposal doesn't quite work. First just finding them as they are basically homeless would be a problem. How can you arrest someone if you can't find them. How can you sue someone if you can't serve them. Take myself for example, I've had no physical address for the last 15 years.

BTW for at least one person that lost their boat last year, now has a new old boat, they live on, that they purchased for very little money. As for myself I've lived on my boat for 11 years now and all if its 150 square feet. So a jail cell would only be slightly smaller. Hey free medical, at my age that will cost a pretty penny. At least I won't have to worry about the anchor dragging, eh.

[Southtexassailr]

I have a 41' sailboat docked in port lavaca tx. We took a direct hit from Harvey one year ago. Of the 60 or so boats in the marina approximately 17 sank in their slips. Another half dozen washed up on city property. On top of that an additional dozen or so were totaled by the insurance companies (or would have been if the owners had insurance) Thankfully mine stayed afloat in her slip. The state removed the destroyed boats and only the owners who wished to keep their boats incurred any expenses. As far as damage claims it seems that all bets are off even among the insurance companies. Subrogation is probably just too expensive. Insured boats were paid off no matter how the damage was incurred or whose boat hit whose.
A couple of notes of caution:
1- your liability coverage probably does not include wreck removal. With my insurance (progressive) you must have full coverage to qualify for wreck removal coverage.

2. Catastrophic storm damage at the dock is most likely going to result from other boats hitting yours. Secure your boat as best you can and then secure your neighbors if he doesn't. Sad fact is that most boat owners at our marina made zero effort to properly secure their boats. I felt silly chaining my boat to the dock in the event that lines parted but that tow chain was all that kept my boat in her slip ( the anchor chain at the bow snapped presumably when she was hit by another boat that broke free)

These are just my experiences and observations. Ymmv.

[Secondshift]

My observations in 2004 after Frances and Jeanne are the same as reported by Southtexassailr.
If you want to keep your boat you'll need to foot the bill. If it has value a salvor will happily recover and sell it at auction. If it doesn't have value it becomes part of the diasastor clean up.

The fantasy of eradicating the problems of the poor with severe legislation is ludicrous.
"Having trouble paying your bills ...well taking your drivers license will certainly motivate you."

I attended several Martin County meetings
years ago to discuss the local derelict vessel issue. The matters are still being resolved.

We live in a house and keep our 33' anchored out. Guess that qualifies me as a deadbeat.

Best Regards,
Ed W

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Debgen

I guess I must be one of the "deadbeats" that everyone keeps referring to. I've had owned power and sail for over 40 years and have over 30K sea miles. I've never suffered a loss and always been diligent about maintenance and have been a prudent sailor. Currently I own a 48 year old boat that no one will underwrite except for liability. If I sustained a major loss from a storm event I do not have the funds to remove the vessel except for a chainsaw and a uhaul. Being marginal doesn't equivocate to being a "deadbeat" owner.

If your boat crashes into mine and damages it, and you can't pay the damages, you ARE a deadbeat plain and simple. Not being able to afford it doesn't let you off the moral hook.

Same thing applies if your boat lands up in my front yard and I have to pay to have it cut up and removed. Its not MY fault you let it wash up there. Why should I have to pay to remove YOUR boat? Not taking care of the damage and costs you bring on to other people makes you a deadbeat. Maybe there is a more polite word for it where you come from, but I don't know one.

If either of those things happen, I'd sue and get a judgement. Not my fault you chose a hobby you can't afford the consequences of. If your insurance takes care of those things, that is good for both of us. If not, it's not my fault.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by captwylie

In the case of a hurricane, your boat being washed ashore is no different than having the roof blown off your house and landing in someone's yard, or on their car or in their swimming pool. The US government comes out to cleanup the mess.

This. From having gone through several hurricanes and the aftermath, including Katrina.